Delineation

[tomorrowstreasures]

My 2nd question of the day is this:

Create delineations between these categories:

• newbie
• amateur
• hobbyist
• serious hobbyist
• semi professional
• professional
• hall of fame - r

[kat]

Newbie- Getting your first camera and turning on the S-mode and wondering why your image is all black. The manual is a most read!!!! And Auto is your best friend.

Amateur- Not using Auto so much. Realizing that there is more to it and starting to get it.

Hobbyist/Serious hobbyist- The difference between the two being how much you are out shooting. I think these terms apply to a Newbie and Amateur more so then the next set of names. I feel (and of course this is my thought) that once you start making a livelyhood from photography it becomes not so much a hobby as a career/even though you enjoy your career.

Semi-professional - Almost there! Got most things worked out! You feel comfortable with your work but would like to get it just a bit more "perfect". I'd like to think this is where you start considering selling photos because people are asking to buy them!

Professional - You are there! You've learnt the techniques and skills that make you absolutley confident in yourself. No second guessing..seems like it's all up there and your photos are proof of that time and time again. No problems selling photos or getting work.

Hall of famer- Just like everything in life, you have those that are bad,good,the best, and a few who just have a talent that goes beyond "the best". That would be my hall of famer.

And this is how I think of the list. I'd like to har from others..maybe my thoughts are wrong and I should be looking at it a bit different

[jjeling]

I have moved from a serious hobbyist into the semi-professional then. Haha. This all sounds about right. While I would like to consider myself a professional, my confidence is not completely there yet. I know my images are generally as good as anyone else's for each situation, its just that self-assurance. It has greatly improved in the past couple months but not quite there yet. I still need to generate an income from it as well. As for Hall of Famer..........I will thank several of you when I get there.

[tirediron]

Newbie: Self-explanatory.

Amateur and hobbyist: Interchangable to a degree. Someone whose skill ranges from almost nothing, to just short of Ansel Adams, and spends as much time as he or she is able behind the lens, but doesn't make any money at it.

Semi-professional and professional: Someone who either makes a little money or all their money through photography. Has NO relation to their talent or abilities.

Hall of Famer: Someone who has achieved wide recognition both within and without the photographic community. Someone whose name is likely to recognized by 'Joe Average'.

[tomorrowstreasures]

I am about to hit the submit button with a bit of trepidation here. I just finished composing my on Professional status. Please, no throwing of old film cans at me. I am not one that is comfy with being negative but just needed to get this off of my chest.

The professional tag is the one I have the most difficulty with. There are many out there that tag them self as such. Just because you want to play in the game does not a professional make. I think it is ridiculous that one can tag them self as such with out paying the proverbial dues. I think that one should have to apply to an organization (run by professional peers) that specializes in granting professional status and then, at that time and only after that permission has been granted can you label yourself a pro. You would have to submit examples of your work, maybe and essay, maybe an exam. The market is becoming glutted with people who take decent images, but have not a clue how the image got that way, get a little encouragement from folks, then all of sudden, attach a title to their name - "professional" and then, feel the right to charge people these ridiculous fees for what they do (or in many cases what a decent dslr can do on auto or a helper mode). I think a proving ground is needed to be a true professional. In the days prior to digital, you had to know your craft inside and out to have consistent results... you paid your dues. The bar for a professional should be raised. A professional should be one of few not one of many. A professional used to have a sophistication attached to the title and now it seems that the professional is no more than someone who "decides" that they are such.

Personally speaking, I am a hobbyist. People have solicited my skills. It has gotten to the point that I no longer feel that I can give away what I do as I have a lot invested in equipment and reading materials, pp tools, time etc. I charge a very minimal fee to those that solicit me it and then get hammered from others that I am driving down the industry with my fees. I have not asked for the business, nor have I ever called myself a professional. I love to take photos. I want to know all that I can to produce the best piece that I can. I have no plan to make a career out of what I do.

I know I am standing pretty tall on a soap box here. It just frustrates me for those who really have earned the title.

[kat]

I agree with you! I really do think there are too many that think they are of that status.

I consider myself amateur. I wouldn't think to go above that.

I read somewhere, I think in a photo contest, that they considered one an amateur unless their photography makes up 90%+ of their income. But is it really about the money or skill. Or do you have that professional skill when you make that sort of money... Ha ha..I don't really know - never sold a photo.

This comes to mind :

Actors. Some better than others..but some of the best don't get paid like the others. But they never have trouble finding work or getting reconized by an award. I think your work always shows where you are at, and you can't fool anyone but yourself for that.

[Travis]

The professional tag is the one I have the most difficulty with. There are many out there that tag them self as such. Just because you want to play in the game does not a professional make. I think it is ridiculous that one can tag them self as such with out paying the proverbial dues. I think that one should have to apply to an organization (run by professional peers) that specializes in granting professional status and then, at that time and only after that permission has been granted can you label yourself a pro. You would have to submit examples of your work, maybe and essay, maybe an exam. The market is becoming glutted with people who take decent images, but have not a clue how the image got that way, get a little encouragement from folks, then all of sudden, attach a title to their name - "professional" and then, feel the right to charge people these ridiculous fees for what they do (or in many cases what a decent dslr can do on auto or a helper mode). I think a proving ground is needed to be a true professional. In the days prior to digital, you had to know your craft inside and out to have consistent results... you paid your dues. The bar for a professional should be raised. A professional should be one of few not one of many. A professional used to have a sophistication attached to the title and now it seems that the professional is no more than someone who "decides" that they are such.

Personally speaking, I am a hobbyist. People have solicited my skills. It has gotten to the point that I no longer feel that I can give away what I do as I have a lot invested in equipment and reading materials, pp tools, time etc. I charge a very minimal fee to those that solicit me it and then get hammered from others that I am driving down the industry with my fees. I have not asked for the business, nor have I ever called myself a professional. I love to take photos. I want to know all that I can to produce the best piece that I can. I have no plan to make a career out of what I do.

lol... you are whistling out of both sides of your mouth... on one side you say only acclaimed professionals should be able to charge for service and that an influx of non acclaimed pros have saturated the market... while on the other side you charge for your services which puts you in the very category you criticize...

I can't imagine submitting work to an estblishment for judgment on whether I'm "pro" or not.... photography is art..... art is subjective... the quality of the work is as perceived by the viewer... a governing body would stifle artistic flow...

look at music.. there are thousands of musicians out there making millions from their craft without any rudimentry musical theory skills.... some can only play 3 chords... some have their music written for them... but they are enjoyed by millions.... does that make them less professional? I think so but this is the reality...

IMO it's really hard to box the meaning of professional other than how Tirediron put it.... A person who exchanges images for money...

Quality of work in an entirely different subject.... In an open market it's always buyer beware and it's no different with photography...

I've seen professional mechanics take people to the cleaners... professional airline pilots drunk at the wheel... professional investment brokers thieve assets... professional home builders cut corners.... all of these people licensed by a regulatory body.... buyer beware...

just arguing for the sake

[jjeling]

With all that being said, I agree with TT. There are too many people out there calling themselves professionals. The last photo contest I entered was for amateurs only. With the contest laid out by a Professional(Art Weber), the point at which you become a professional photographer is when more than 50% of your income is derived from photography. If less than 50% of your income is through photography, you are considered an amateur, or hobbyist. Unfortunately, it does not seem like they checked the background of the 200 some applicants. Some of the work submitted was definitly professional work. These rules came from the National Center for Nature Photography Photo Contest if anyone wants to look it up(here in the USA).
From a personal standpoint, I would like to considered myself a serious hobbyist. It is even listed as that in my profile when I registered for this forum. As time has passed over the years, I have tried expanding my creativity and knowledge in photography. With the knowledge I have gained, it seems to me that I have done much more than the average photographer and find it frustrating that people do call themselves photographers once they purchase a $1500 dollar camera. Dues must be paid as TT has mentioned, but this will show over time because those that have will consistently put out the best work and will have the largest following. Since the economy has turned sour here, I have taken it upon myself to strive to be a professional photographer by the rules of the contest mentioned. Before I do so, it is more important for me to try and develop my skills in all areas of photography so that I can settle into one industry that I can earn a decent income through, and then be creative in my freetime in the others.
There is one issue that many people have problems with and thats the pricing. TT has touched on this by saying that others are bothered because she pushed the industry prices down. Yes and no. If they were truly confident in themselves and their knowledge, it would be the last of their worries. When you enter a trade, skill, or developed art, you begin to get paid on your knowledge and not your work. Anyone can take a good or decent picture, but when you take a great picture, you really have no done any more work. It is the knowledge you possess that allows you to take such a great picture that also allows you to charge a higher rate, or sometimes a flat fee. With that being said, many people are considered professional photographers. The difference is the ones that have built their business through referrals and quality work that stand out from the rest. It comes from learning, teaching, experience, knowledge, and proven results.
This is just my take on the 'professional' subject. feel free to disagree with me if you like, it would be nice to hear your opinions as well.

[jjeling]

I agree with Travis as well. Putting a governing body or trying to win a art contest is kind of a joke. Nearly everything about the art of photography is subjective. When entering into a contest, it ruins the subjective nature of the art. Unfortunately, for you to really become a well known professional or to make it into the 'Hall of Fame' as a photographer, you must win contests. The numbers are stacked against you usually. Having been in two contests myself, I have placed in 2nd and 3rd in one, and an honorable mention in another. The only two I have been in. The images that one, were not necessarily better, and in one case were quite terrible. It was the presentation that won the contest since I did it on a short notice(within 24hours). Contests definitly ruin the artistic nature of photography IMO.

[kat]

Ive entered into four contests. One ending well and the other three - still waiting on. I don't expect to get anywhere with two of those.

Now the one I think I'll get something, or at least hope to, is a local contest put on by the town. The only problem I found with this contest is that it's hard to put anything artistic up because they just want photos that represent my town for the website and promotional things.

The funny thing is, I've heard one person complaining I put in photos to this contest because I have a nice camera..... Because of my equipment - they thought I was professional. (Which..if they had a clue they'd know it's far from it )

I don't know..sorry for the rant. I was gonna go somewhere with this but forgot what it was now.. oh yah..maybe professional photographers is all about the money and not the skill..maybe that is a better way to think of it.