Delineation

[Travis]

Wow..I am feeling sort of hackish with my D40... :(

lol... sorry... i didn't mean for the statement to be sweeping....

I'm talking about people with little grasp the rudiments, entry level pp skills, entry level organizational and business skills, and a lack of back up equipment..

[Barefoot]

lol... sorry... i didn't mean for the statement to be sweeping....

I'm talking about people with little grasp the rudiments, entry level pp skills, entry level organizational and business skills, and a lack of back up equipment..

Back-up equipment?

[jjeling]

Travis, since you seem like you have a strong opinion and background knowledge on this I had a couple questions for you. I have been looking for a job since graduating college for a while now. I would like to say that I am a little more advanced than the novice photography, but really have no background to support this(no formal education, business or client base). The only support I really have is the fact that Ive placed fairly well in the only two photography contests Ive entered. Since I dont have a job, Ive been thinking about getting into wedding and portrait photography for an income. It still has not happened because I have been rather adament on avoiding them in order to keep my creativity alive. Unfortunately, the economy here sucks, and jobs are inexistant unless you wish to work for minimum wage. Now, you have mentioned that a "hack" with a D40 could charge $600 and an qualified amateur a little more. What exactly do you mean by "hack" and "qualified amateur?" It seems to be a great alternative for individuals such as myself who refuse to put a camera down, and then in the "off" time can pursue their creative side. Without really looking at the camera's as an "expense" since the were purchased as I grew into the need for them, there really isnt any kind of overhead. With several people asking me for services, I have thought about it but have turned many down. I understand your frustrations with people thinking they are the worlds best, but in reality improvement is through confidence knowing you can get better. To be honest, it seems that really, any type of photography can be still be done with the early dSLR's. They really are nothing more than the original 35mm's in a digital format. Even 6mp cameras can print out quality 24x36 prints if the image is good enough(I have several). I can promise you that my 'dinosaur' K110d (have a alpha 100 as well) can take pictures as well as any other camera as an 8x10 print(8x12 as full print w/o crop), so what really even the need for a d40? It just seems the D40 is for those who feel the need to purchase the latest and greatest to give them the confidence they need to get better. It really is not totally necessary, but hey, to each his own.
Sorry about the rant, back to the original question, what exactly is a "hack with a D40" and a "qualified amateur?"

[Travis]

It still has not happened because I have been rather adament on avoiding them in order to keep my creativity alive.

I wouldn't worry about that.... there is a ton of creative room in wedding/portraiture... and when your not working you can shoot what you want

Now, you have mentioned that a "hack" with a D40 could charge $600 and an qualified amateur a little more. What exactly do you mean by "hack" and "qualified amateur?"

Well.. I kinda explained it in a post above... a person with an entry level dslr who has a touch more knowledge than a person who leaves their slr in auto mode. This person will most likely not know proper use of fill flash, bounce flash, or how to drag the shutter. Variable lighting conditions will fool their white balance. Their compositional eye won't be fine tuned..... plenty of cut off limbs and the like. In the formal session, it's likely that people won't be arranged properly and the bride will be out in full sun at 1:00 with squinting eyes. They'll miss more exposures than they'll hit and this will have them running around in post to make things right. They won't be able to save the shots with massive clipping and the underexposures will show a lot of noise when they bring up the shadows. They will most likely be using a kit lens which will limit shallow dof shots and the lack of wide aperture will force them to crank their iso (which their camera can't handle) or improperly use their flash. Post processing?... sure.. they know how to adjust the sharpening slider... but they don`t know what haloing is... and they don`t dodge and burn... Contracts? forget about it.... Back up equipment? No way... something breaks and no wedding pictures for you.

A qualified amateur/entry level professional -

-Solid fundamentals
-Good to excellent use of flash, existing light, reflectors
-Nails exposure on 8 out of 10
-Back up flashes, lenses and bodies
-Shoots two bodies for quick focal variations
-Good to excellent compositional skills
-Good communication skills to help the client relax and have fun during shooting
-Their ingrained skills allow them not to mess up camera settings in high pressure/rushed environments
-Good to excellent creative skills that will provide the client with some unique unexpected shots
-Most likely a contract
-Tasteful post processing, cropping, and nicely finished images
-Either high rez images for client or a print package (or both)
-Images completed no later than 2 weeks after they get back from the honeymoon

High Calibre Pro

-Unswayed by any obstacle
-Nails everything
-2nd shooter for candids
-Couple of assistants
-One creative shot after another, extracting the impossible from seemingly dull environments to forge brilliance
-Has make up kits, combs, sewing kits, ladders and other anomalies to keep things on track
-Charming and charismatic ability allows people to relax and enjoy being photographed
-Outstanding PP skills
-Iron clad reputation
-Fair contract but high price
-Print packages sure but also leather bound scrap books, DVD slide shows, coffee mugs, key chains and other swag that you'll end up buying because they are such a good salesperson

I understand your frustrations with people thinking they are the worlds best, but in reality improvement is through confidence knowing you can get better.

Not sure where you are getting this from..... I'm not frustrated... Maybe you were thinking about the OP?

Even 6mp cameras can print out quality 24x36 prints if the image is good enough(I have several). I can promise you that my 'dinosaur' K110d (have a alpha 100 as well) can take pictures as well as any other camera as an 8x10 print(8x12 as full print w/o crop), so what really even the need for a d40? It just seems the D40 is for those who feel the need to purchase the latest and greatest to give them the confidence they need to get better. It really is not totally necessary, but hey, to each his own.
Sorry about the rant, back to the original question, what exactly is a "hack with a D40" and a "qualified amateur?"

This is confusing me... the D40 (a wonderful DSLR) is far from the latest and greatest. It's a 6 meg entry level Nikon. While I agree it is capable of making wonderful images, it's a bit of a misnomer to call it the tool of choice for wedding photography. 6 meg is great at 6 meg but every wedding shot is cropped to one degree or another. You generally shoot a step back from your framed composition to allow for variable cropping based on you client needs. After trimming you are down to 4 meg or less. This is limiting when you take the image into post processing. Posterization, halo's, banding, artifacts will all reveal themselves quicker due to the small size.

The lack of two thumb wheels will have you chasing around for your settings on the fly. Want to change ISO on the fly?? Sorry... into the menus you go. No top display means you have call up the LCD to check your settings. What about those churches with a no flash policy... you don't have the ISO capabilities to properly get good quality clean shots. No on board commander to trigger a strobe. Only three focus points with a slow focusing servo that will hesitate (or sometimes grind to halt) in low light. Back into the menus if you want to change metering on the fly.

These are crucial issues for someone who is shooting in a fast paced and light challenged environment for money. Not so crucial if you are taking your time setting up a landscape on a beautiful morning.


Personally, I think all of the above types of shooters are required and in demand. Some people don't have the money to spend $5000 (or $1000) on a photographer. Some people don't care that much about stellar photography. Some people just want affordable pictures with quality just a touch higher than grandma's point and shoot. I've seen some people leave a couple of disposable cameras on each table telling guests to fill em up. Works great. This is why I don't think you should need a photographers license to sell images. There are different levels of buyers and matching levels of sellers.

[jjeling]

Thanks a lot for the input. Pretty much what I was looking for. haha. Didnt know that the D40 was only a 6meg camera. Pretty much avoid Nikon and Canon which explains the reason for that. You made some good points that Im glad to listen and think about. I have been to several weddings where cameras were left on the tables. Not a bad idea, but I would be curious about the cost of the cameras and then the cost of getting all the pictures developed. The last wedding I was at had two photographers, one for the 'good' images and the other for candids. Never really gave that one much thought. Thanks for sharing all that, there are always things you dont think about until its too late or until you ask someone with more experience than you.

[Ben H]

Didnt know that the D40 was only a 6meg camera.

The last wedding I was at had two photographers, one for the 'good' images and the other for candids. Never really gave that one much thought.

There are always things you dont think about until its too late or until you ask someone with more experience than you.

It's these things which really illustrate case in point. A lot of new photographers get their first dSLR, can just about work the "auto" button, make very average pictures, don't really know how or why they could improve, and don't know much about, and haven't put any thought into exactly what it takes to be a wedding shooter.

The "I've just got my first dSLR now I can shoot weddings" thing is where photographers who know better raise their eyes to the ceiling.

Shooting weddings is hard, it's a high pressure situation, and it's a unique important event and you have to get it right. You have to have a thorough practical mastery of flash, low-light and event shooting, and need to be able to produce great to excellent shots.

What Travis said is bang on.

I'm not knocking anyone who wants to do it (do you *really* *want* to do it, or is it just a case of "oh, there's a way of getting some revenue out of shooting) - and some who take the bull by the horns do great.

But don't underestimate what it takes - low-light event shooting is hard unless you have great gear (fast cameras, fast lenses) and have developed those event shooting skills - add hundreds of people, and make the requirement that 98% of your shots be keepers, without much leeway to do it again if you mess up, and it really does add up to be challenging.

And certainly too big a deal to go into without much thought - as a lot of newbies often do...

For me, I wouldn't even think about it until I had a good few years of event shooting under my belt - any event shooting I'm doing currently I usually treat as a great opportunity to learn and excercise things I've learnt in the meantime. But my percentage of "great shots" at these events is still way too low. When this rises, and I'm much more comfortable with what needs to be done and how to shoot, I'll be much better prepared for these things.

It's also a good idea to assist on wedding shoots a long time before you become the single shooter - this will give you a good training ground with a bit more leeway to mess up without too much consequence...

[tomorrowstreasures]

I just got half way through Travis' reply (post#24) and wanted to say this is exactly what I was looking for with the original thread starter! You spelled out perfectly a delineation between a "hack" (your word, not mine), an ami -pro and a hi cal pro! thanks so much for taking the time to do that! (It would have taken me a month to type all of that!) (hunt>peck>backspace>rehunt>repeck)

any one game for the other categories?

[tomorrowstreasures]

Ben's reply (#26) Is EXACTLY what I was trying to say when I called out the ridiculous prices people are charging that do not meet the criteria set forth by Travis. How can any one in their right mind feel good about charging people the fees that they do with out that expertise? See- you guys are on my side, you just say it in a FAR better way. Protect the PRO!!!! They earned it, they deserve financial reimbursement. Protect the CLIENT!!! When the client hires the "pro" they are trusting that they know what they are doing - no different than going to a lawyer or doctor - you trust that they did not graduate from the University of Little Known and Non Accredited with their law and MD credentials. I realize that there are differing price points in play and buyer beware - i just feel that ethically, those of us lacking the pro standards should back off - either allow the pros to do their job or price very modestly and call a spade a spade.

And, after sleeping on it, I concur with Travis and Ben and Kat and JJ - the non perfect world we live in and all the realities that go along with it. thanks so much for sharing your POV and I think I am not alone in thinking that some Very good POV are being presented here.

ok, i am done with talking about my rant about what the pro deserves, about what a client deserves...... onward!

[kat]

I'm with you guys here.

My thinking is that a "hack" can be using any camera. I've seen people with the lastest model and can't do a thing with it but are "pro" in their eyes.

I agree that camera's get better up the line..heck..if anything I want auto-bracketing (oh..do I want that) but you use what you have.

A hack is a hack.

[kat]

I'm just wondering...how everyone would handle this situation at the level of experience they are at.

This is just a scenario

I have a woman who wants shots taken. When she smiles, she has gums that you can't miss and a smile that never looks genuine, even when it is. When she isn't full teeth smile, she has that smile/or serious looks that resemblesses she's faking it, that she is pissy and snobby. She doesn't like her triple chin. But she wants poses that would protray it. She doesn't want a good view of her nose. And nothing is to be shot from the shoulders down because she thinks she is too fat for it. She just isn't happy with herself...

Would you take this client on knowing that most likely you wont find a shot to please her? That nothing pleases her. Or would you try for it just to see if you can..a challenge.

Is there a way to make one realize that we aren't models and to flaunt what we have and accept it..ha ha..in an 1 hour shoot!

I have my theory but want to see what others think.