Neutral Density 8 Filter

[Foots]

Sometimes, I find all the bits and bobs of photography a little overwhelming.:confused:

Several months ago, I admired a photo which had cool foamy looking water. MA said a ND8 filter would do that.

At the camera store, the salesperson sold me a Tiffen Neutral Density 6 filter and said it was just the same.

I spent a day photographing fountains (working ones), adjusting settings after settings and didn't get the foamy looking water.

Checked back at the camera store, this salesperson (a different one) said they don't stock ND8 filters as they are not popular - come in squares and need an adapter to use.

So now I am confused. Can anybody help me. I am trying to take one thing at a time and sort it out, before moving on. I kind of had my heart seat on making foamy water.

It could be that what I have works, but I didn't have the correct camera settings. Or do I have to buy the square thingy with the adapter?

[Lovin]

For me it's working just with long exposure.
Switch the settings on P, and try 1-2 seconds exposure first.

Here is a link about the ND filters and how to... http://www.alexwisephotography.net/blog/2007/11/15/why-use-neutral-density-filters/

[Matt K.]

Whole trick is long exposure. You can even use a polarizer, if need be. That would stop you down at least 2 stops. That may be enough time gained in exposure.

By the way, the Cokin filters are available on eBay for much less that you would pay for in a camera store ... and you can get an assortment of filters easier.

[Grant]

Foot The neutral density filter allows you to use a slower shutter speed and this helps blur the water. You can cut down the light and create this effect in three way. Use neutral density filter, I have two a #3 and a #6. You can also use a polarizing filter. Both of these don’t do as good a job as waiting until the light has faded. I get my best results early in the morning or very late in the day.

To give you a feel for what to expect a #8 ND filter will cut down the light by 2.8 stops. Now if it is a sunny day and you are shooting at ISO 200 and your aperture is f/16 then your shutter speed will be 1/200. If you use the #8 filter and stay with all the settings and only change the shutter you are now be at 1/40 of a second and this is not slow enough to do what you want. If you come back at dusk you can easily shoot at 1 second and that is enough to do what you want. Of course you will need a tripod.

[Foots]

Lovin, thanks for the link. Very easy to understand and great photos. That's exactly what I would like to try to do.
Grant, I tried to make my camera have the settings you mentioned and couldn't get them to all stay at once. If I put the camera on M 1/40 ISO 200, it wants to be on F5.6 (BTW I am pretty new to DSLR - and terrible at reading photography books)
Matt, Great suggestion. When I figure out what I am supposed to buy .....

[Greg_Nuspel]

OK if you are getting 1/40 at f5.6 stop down to f16 and you should be down to 1/5 second you are now getting into motion blur range. It's all about slow shutter speed. Tips and Techniques: Shutter Speeds and Moving Water (http://photographybydon.com/blog/2007/02/shutter-speeds-and-moving-water.html)

[Marko]

Foot The neutral density filter allows you to use a slower shutter speed and this helps blur the water. You can cut down the light and create this effect in three way. Use neutral density filter, I have two a #3 and a #6. You can also use a polarizing filter. Both of these don’t do as good a job as waiting until the light has faded. I get my best results early in the morning or very late in the day.

To give you a feel for what to expect a #8 ND filter will cut down the light by 2.8 stops. Now if it is a sunny day and you are shooting at ISO 200 and your aperture is f/16 then your shutter speed will be 1/200. If you use the #8 filter and stay with all the settings and only change the shutter you are now be at 1/40 of a second and this is not slow enough to do what you want. If you come back at dusk you can easily shoot at 1 second and that is enough to do what you want. Of course you will need a tripod.

The key thing to play with in this case is shutterspeed as it is the shutterspeed that will give you the dreamy effect you are after. 1/40 is still too fast...BUT using this example, we are at iso 200 AND at F16 at 1/40...we WANT to get that shutterspeed slower. We (may) have iso 100 on our camera. If so... we can tweak these numbers and have IDENTICAL exposure. Sooo.... ISO 100 f-16 1/20 we can go further to get a better shutterspeed. ISO 100 f-22 1/10 - NOW we are in the range of decent blur.

IF your lens goes down to F32 we can go slower ISO 100 F-32 1/5

THIS is as slow as we can go using this filter provided the lens goes to f32.
If we STILL want slower...we need to put a darker filter on the lens OR as Grant correctly suggests, wait for less intense light.

Now here's the thing... IF you WANT a larger f-stop to get good boken...then you are going to need MORE neutral density filters to darken the scene even further. I'm with grant though....early morning or early evening for softer more manageable light.


Lovin, thanks for the link. Very easy to understand and great photos. That's exactly what I would like to try to do.
Grant, I tried to make my camera have the settings you mentioned and couldn't get them to all stay at once. If I put the camera on M 1/40 ISO 200, it wants to be on F5.6 (BTW I am pretty new to DSLR - and terrible at reading photography books)
Matt, Great suggestion. When I figure out what I am supposed to buy .....

The GOAL here (for learning) imo, should be a shutterspeed lesson - so set your shutterspeed to 1/4 second 1/2 second 1 second....and choose the iso and aperture to balance the exposure based on that.....

If this is not clear please let us know...these are exposure basics and you CANNOT progress far in photography at all without fully understanding this.

Hope that helps - Marko

[Foots]

Thanks Greg and Marko, I have printed this all out and will take it with me and try it out. I think it is becoming more clear now (less like rock more like mud).

You're right Marko, these are exposure basics and I need to learn them. When I bought my DSLR I expected to be a better point and shoot(er). But after seeing what is possible here on the forum, I have raised my expectations and want to try and learn more.

I appreciate you all taking the time to give me feedback and links and examples. I will read up and then look for some falling water to practice on. When I get something, I will show you what I achieved.

[Mad Aussie]

ND 8 do come in screw on's so I'm not sure what your salesperson was telling you. Unless your lens dia is weird and only filters like the coken systems do them but I doubt that. Sounds like they were just wanting to sell you what they had in stock to me.

You can buy ND's in sets which is helpful because you can then stack the filters (use more than one at a time) to get that shutter speed down. Stacking will cause vignetting due to the lens 'seeing' the edge of the filters if it's a wider angle though so you may need to use slightly longer focal lengths.

On the brightest of days, you are unlikely to reduce the shutter down enough to get what you are looking for I think without several ND 8's or similar attached.

Obviously, and we've said before, early morning or late arvo are usually the best time but when on holiday or away from home for the day you simply can't be where you need to be for this sometimes, so ND's are the go if you have a chance to achieve what you need.

[Marko]

It's our pleasure and please don't be shy about asking basic questions again.

At the end of the day it's really just a matter of adjusting the units of ISO, aperture, and shutterspeed to get the desired effects you are after.

If your camera gives you an exposure and u want to tweak it....If you make the aperture smaller, it only makes sense that the shutter needs to stay open longer and vice versa.

In terms of ISO - Let's say your camera gives you an exposure for any given scene. If you raise the ISO (by one unit i.e from 200 to 400) the camera becomes more sensitive to light by 1 unit and you have to compensate for this by closing down the aperture (i.e from F-4 to F5.6) by one unit
OR making the shutterspeed faster by 1 unit. ie from 1/60 to 1/125

Hope that helps,
Marko

[Grant]

Foots here are my rules for taking pictures.

1) Have fun.
2) Take lots of images, after all pixels are cheap.
3) Learn a bit.
4) Go back to #1 and do it all over again
5) There ain't no rule #5

[Greg_Nuspel]

B+W makes the #110 = 10 stops and Hoya makes the 400 = 9 stops and there is Neutural Density (ND) - ND500 MC 77mm (http://www.lightcraftworkshop-shop.com/product/34) = 9 stops.

[Mad Aussie]

B+W makes the #110 = 10 stops and Hoya makes the 400 = 9 stops and there is Neutural Density (ND) - ND500 MC 77mm (http://www.lightcraftworkshop-shop.com/product/34) = 9 stops.
Wow ... never heard of those ones. Them's serious!

[Greg_Nuspel]

The cine guys use major neutral density for time-lapse and there are some for scientific use that are even darker, but most of those are too small for photographic purposes.

[Wicked Dark]

hey foots. some good advice here. I will add another piece - choose an overcast or very cloudy day to shoot. It will help you achieve slower shutter speeds and also eliminate harsh highlights and shadows that will "blow out", meaning they will be so overexposed as to have no detail in the pixels at all...they will be completely white or black. I don't photograph fountains, but do a lot of brooks and rivers and overcast is the way to go.

[Mad Aussie]

I'll be taking 2x ND 8 and 1x ND 4 with me on my next holiday. I want the ability to slow that shutter at any time of the day (within reason) because I just don't know what I'll see at what time of day, or what the weather will be like.

[scorpio_e]

Every gave some great advice. When you shoot later in the day " like close to sunset" you could do away with the need for the ND filter. Shooting later in the day, you can use a longer shutter speed.