Post Processing Workflow?

[Iguanasan]

I've been shooting and processing for a while now though I don't think I do the processing very well. I'm wondering if I can get some advice on this. Here's the way I work right now.

1) Load RAW images into Picasa.
2) Select image and make a minor editing change such as a crop. This lets me do a "Save" in Picasa which creates a JPG and moves the RAW to a backup folder that I can retrieve at any time in the future.
3) Edit the JPG in GIMP

Here's where most of my questions come in. Is there a particular order I should do the next bits in? Should I do colour curves before brightness/contrast? Should sharpening (unsharp mask) always be last? Is there a recommended order for these edits to be done in? How does the histogram help when doing colour curves?

Basically, I just fiddle with the curves and sliders until I think it looks better but it seems to me my edits should be more structured.

4) Save the image out as a JPG which overwrites the JPG in Picasa (RAW is still protected).
5) Now I'm ready to upload to Photography.ca, Flickr, etc.

Comments? Ideas?

[Marko]

Sure I got opinions :)

Not crazy at all about this workflow Iggy.

Saving to jpeg is the LAST thing I do and yet it's high up there in your workflow.

Once you save as a jpeg...you throw out data...Given that you are into photography as a passion, to do further post processing on a jpeg file does not make sense to me.

IMO, ALL post processing work should be done in a lossless format like RAW, TIFF or PSD.....then converted to jpeg only at the end.

I have not worked with ADOBE elements but I hear it's pretty damn close to most photoshop tasks for about 100 bucks... If you can afford it I think it would be a good investment.

OR

If gimp allows you to work in a lossless format use GIMP the whole way through and save to jpeg only at the end.

Hope that helps - Marko

[Iguanasan]

I've thought about that but Picasa only seems to export/save to JPG and GIMP does not edit RAW files :( I hesitate adding a third piece of software to the mix and I've been putting off the Adobe stuff because I'm stubborn and figure I should be able to do this for free with the tools I have. Maybe I need to rethink that. $700/$800 for Photoshop is crazy but $100 for Elements might be a good idea. They have a 30 day eval. Maybe I'll give it a try...

[Marko]

I'd be interested to hear the suggestions of other members....but by buying elements you're not adding a 3rd piece of software....you are replacing GIMP forever and possibly picassa as well.
(Though picassa IS a rocket at sorting photos).

At the end of the day....for me, after I do something for quite a while and realize that i will keep at it, I'll spend the $ to get a reasonably priced tool.

You can likely even get coupon or promo codes to reduce the elements price even further. I like retailmenot.com for this sort of thing.

[F8&Bthere]

PS Elements may be worth a try. It can be your DAM, raw converter, and editing tool all in one.

It's nice to be able to preserve data throughout the process, but if you are at least saving your original RAW file (non destructive editing) that's a very good thing.

I've read that many photographers do noise reduction near the beginning of the workflow and sharpening at the end. Makes sense. As for contrast or curves adjustments and such, I don't know if the order matters much.

But if you use the Adobe RAW converter (ACR) in Elements, Lightroom, or Photoshop, you can do much of that during the RAW conversion and then I don't think the order matters since it's all done in one step basically through the interface on importing a RAW file. The sharpening that you might apply in that process could be called pre-sharpening. As I understand it, it is just to counter what the RAW format usually lacks. Then you would usually also do some output sharpening depending on how your images will be viewed (screen vs print) and that, if you use Elements, would be done probably as the final step using unsharp mask or the advanced sharpening (like smart sharpen in CS3/4).

The thing with Elements I am currently struggling with is how I can save a file without flattening the layers and losing the editing history, while still not producing overly huge file sizes cluttering up my hard drive, so I can go back again and tweak it if I wish, without having to start all over again. I think PS CS's smart filters make this task easier and more efficient.

[JAS_Photo]

Yes, Elements is the way to go. I think you can get an offer on the net which takes about $20 off the price making it about $79. You can add your filters such as Topaz and it allows you to work in layers which once you learn that makes doing all sorts of tweaks or fixes easy. There is a learning curve, but even just doing the auto stuff at first gets you started. I use it in conjunction with LightRoom which is not cheap but a wiz at saving photos. It also does a few minor adjustments, is great at converting to B&W and has a great straightening, cropping tool. But definitely, Elements will give a you a lot of control on how your photo ends up looking.

[Mad Aussie]

We had another thread all about this Iggy. Went for a few pages from memory too.

[Bambi]

just to thow in that you can edit RAW in GIMP with the add in I posted about here:
http://www.photography.ca/Forums/f10/opening-raw-images-gimp-6852.html

I also quite like photoshop and it's closer to lightroom. Why not download the demo and try them out.

[Mad Aussie]

Found it ... http://www.photography.ca/Forums/f10/sequence-post-processing-2111.html

[Iguanasan]

Found it ... http://www.photography.ca/Forums/f10/sequence-post-processing-2111.html

Thanks! I missed that the first time around.

[Barefoot]

I have CS3, Lightroom 2 (and the new Beta of 3), and Elements 7. Seldom do I ever open Lightroom and only use CS3 for the layer mask and to save as jpeg's. It's PSE7 95% of the time. The other 5% is in NX2 for the raw processing.

[Mad Aussie]

Thanks! I missed that the first time around.
Thought it might help.

People might have different ideas and views now though so that thread may not be 'the' answer by any means.

[Iguanasan]

You know I really think my biggest problem is that I really don't understand what I'm doing with the tools that I have now. Buying another piece of software won't help until I figure that stuff out.

For instance, GIMP let's me adjust curves (see below) but I really don't understand the role of the histogram in the process. I also don't understand what I am adjusting when I fiddle with this tool. This just gets compounded with more sliders and curves and such for other features.

Right now I'm just fiddling with these things until I get something that looks better but I really don't know what I'm looking for as I make these adjustments. I understand the roles of ISO, shutter speed, and aperture but get lost on curves, contrast, colour, etc.

5528

[Marko]

That's a very honest answer Iggy. :) We've all seen super-nice shots from you, but I had no idea that you were not familiar with the basics.

Fumbling in the dark to understand something is a sure way to delay learning...but of course I can suggest something. Dump GIMP. It's great to start out w/GIMP because it's powerful and free...but few people use it so when you need help with more difficult stuff, it's harder. Plus no RAW.

For 25 dollars you can learn the basics easily on video. That's 25 dollars a month, but you only have to sign up a month at a time. During that month you can learn Elements and anything else you have time for. (I have learned SEVERAL programs/courses this way from a base of zero). I believe both offer some free tutorials so you can check out the style. Personally, I LOVE to learn in this way, and I take notes (to refer back to) just like I used to in school.

The full elements course at Lynda.com is about 8 hours ( it's only 3:23 min at Kelby...hmmmm)and you can watch it at your own speed. and when you do....everything (levels, layers, histograms, Hue/saturation etc.) will fall into place and you'll go "OMG - that's so not hard". ..... and processing your photos through elements when you understand elements will kick-start a drastic improvement.

Photoshop Elements Training Online Classes | Page 1 | Kelby Training (http://www.kelbytraining.com/online/classes.html&category=photoshop-elements&pg=1)

or Elements Tutorials & Training (http://www.lynda.com/home/ViewCourses.aspx?lpk0=787)

Hope that helps!
Marko

[F8&Bthere]

I agree that GIMP, like Photoshop CS, is complex and probably overkill for many photographers, myself included.

But if you are going to hold off on Elements, and want to continue to use GIMP, I am far from being the expert but this is what I would do:

For every step below I would start by duplicating the background layer. This way if you want to tone down the effect or get rid of it altogether you can just simply adjust the opacity slider or delete the layer altogether. And once you are satisfied with your adjustment in that step, then you can merge down and proceed to next step (Layer>merge down)

1. assess/reduce noise. In Gimp it's Filter>Enhance>despeckle. Keep in mind I don't use Gimp much and have never tried the built-in NR.

1b spot removal- clone or healing tool, as needed.

For the next two steps you can try instead the auto adjustments to see if you like the results they give. If not, it may just help in your assessment. Colors>Auto>equalize, color balance, and white balance.

2. assess/adjust colour, for colour casts and saturation. Colors>levels. You can use the 3 eyedroppers, for black, midtone, and white to click in appropriate areas on your image and you should see adjustments in white balance on your image. you can also adjust sliders here for the levels, or you can jump to next step.

3. assess/adjust contrast. Colors>curves. You usually want an smooth S shaped curve if you are wanting to increase contrast. click once on the diagonal line in the histogram dead center. The click once roughly centered in the lower left quadrant and again a little northeast of centered in the top right quadrant of the graph and then make the S by pulling down the low end and pulling up the high end slightly (see screenshot below). Note if you want you can save this S-curve as a preset, maybe call it "contrast boost"

3b. selective dodging/burning. In the toolbox (well at least in my toolbox, v2.6) it's the very last tool, the one that looks sorta like a burnt matchstick making a black circle.

4. Sharpen. Filters>Enhance>unsharp mask

Finally, if you are happy with the results, flatten the layers, and then save as a tiff or jpeg or both.

Oh and spot removal & cropping- you can do those at any point, but I would probably do spotting/cloning at the start and cropping at the end- save as a tiff first, and then crop to be safe in case you change your mind. I added spot removal as 1b above.

Another addendum:
selective dodging/burning. Added above as step 3b.

Others? what did I miss or overlook?

[Bambi]

great post F8.

[F8&Bthere]

Oh and how can I forget selective dodging/burning. Marko will kick my butt! I would do that as step "3b", near the end, prior to sharpening and saving. In the toolbox (well at least in my toolbox, v2.6) it's the very last tool, the one that looks sorta like a burnt matchstick making a black circle. As Marko has said before, at least I think I recall being his words, most captures can benefit from some careful selective dodging and/or burning

[Iguanasan]

That's a very honest answer Iggy. :) We've all seen super-nice shots from you, but I had no idea that you were not familiar with the basics.

[...snip...]

Hope that helps!
Marko

Thanks, Marko! I think I'll give it try. I'll pick up Elements first and see what I'm missing.

[Iguanasan]

Thanks, F8! Lots of great info. Interesting that when I have fiddled with curves I usually ended up with an S type curve.

[Marko]

Great info F8:highfive: and
"...most captures can benefit from some careful selective dodging and/or burning..." Yessssirrreeee I still stand by that statement :cool: :D
I think you'll like trying out Elements iggy!

[JAS_Photo]

Iggy, Digital Camera World magazine has a website Digital Cameras & Digital Photography | PhotoRadar (http://www.photoradar.com/) with lots of tutorials using Elements and photoshop.

[Barefoot]

Iggy, you mentioned cost as being one of the factors preventing you from making the purchase. Might you be able to utilize a student discount on Adobe products? Someone in the household or maybe a friend and/or acquaintance with an eligible student can cut the cost nearly in half. Just a thought.

[F8&Bthere]

Iggy, you mentioned cost as being one of the factors preventing you from making the purchase. Might you be able to utilize a student discount on Adobe products? Someone in the household or maybe a friend and/or acquaintance with an eligible student can cut the cost nearly in half. Just a thought.

Yes, as an example I was able to use my 6 year old son's student status to buy Lightroom from Academicsuperstore.ca for, if I remember correctly, $129. That company or website has changed hands now I think, and I'm not sure if their pricing and policies have changed as well, but there are other stores out there. All I had to do was use scan some school enrollment or similar document and I was good to go. I know it sounds crazy- what's a 6 yr old need Lightroom for? But I think these online sellers know they're giving you a loophole and are just happy to get the sales as long as you technically meet the guidelines.

UPDATE- I just checked and the new website is www.journeyed.ca and they have Elements 8 for $76 and Lightroom for $109. Once again I don't know if their qualification process is as easy as it was with academicsuperstore.ca, but worth a try...

I know I've said this before, but If I was a guy who wanted to keep things simple as far as editing, just the essentials, and streamline my workflow, and if I was able to stretch the budget a bit, I would totally get Lightroom and nothing else (at least for the time being)- it can do it all, makes the workflow easy, and is getting better with every version. My only complaint is that it is a big resource hog, at least on a PC running windows. They say version 3 will be a bit better in that regard.

[Barefoot]

...I would totally get Lightroom and nothing else (at least for the time being)- it can do it all, makes the workflow easy, and is getting better with every version. My only complaint is that it is a big resource hog, at least on a PC running windows. They say version 3 will be a bit better in that regard.

The beta of 3.0 is a fully functional free download (without any annoying watermarks and such) for use until the end of April. That's plenty enough time to learn the program and decide if its something you want to spring for.

"The Lightroom 3 beta program is available to the public, so that means anyone with an Internet connection can download it and start putting it to the test. You do not need to own (or have tried) a previous version of Lightroom. The version of Lightroom 3 beta software available for download is offered in English only. You can download the beta and use it until the product expires. The current Lightroom 3 public beta will expire on April 30, 2010."

http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/lightroom3/?sdid=FBTFV

[Iguanasan]

Thanks, everyone! It's a karate weekend and the eval is only 30 days so I'll install it next week and check out some of these sites.