What happened?

[casil403]

Hi again everyone...I was wondering if you could help me understand what I did incorrectly while trying to capture my dog playing frisbee. I was doing quite a bit of multi-taking here...photo taking, throwing frisbee, getting Chase in the shot etc. etc. but all the shots came back quite dark and not in focus very well. I did use a tripod for the shots and a cable release.
The first shot is the original, the second is a crop and some pp. Here's the exif data:
Shutter priority ...plus I had the shake reduction setting turned on.
ISO 200 - would ISO100 made a difference?
Sunny white balance
1/1000
F9.5 - should this have been larger or smaller? I let the camera pick it.
50mm focal length
Flash not used
spot metering (I know that was incorrect for sure..probably center weighted?)

Thanks ever so much for your input! :)

[jjeling]

Well there are a couple things I have noticed, starting with your equipment.
With as much light as you have to work with, you shutter speed was at 1/1000. The use of your tripod was probably hindering your ability to compose the picture with your dog. 1/1000 is enough to stop any action, even at 300mm you wouldnt really need a tripod.
I would try and manually set your white balance to the snow, instead of using sunny. The snow is generally caught at something like 52% grey or something like that. Unless you really set the white balance for it, the color of snow is usually off.
I dont think there is a problem with spot metering. You said the white balance was set for sunny, so I'm assuming there was little to no cloud cover. In this situation I might have shot in manual mode. Forgetting about the composition until I made sure the exposure was right. Once you figure out the correct exposure, then set the camera to braketing mode. This way you will take three pictures every time you press the shutter and will get three exposures, generally resulting in a good exposure in one of them. Just be prepared to use a LOT of memory this way.
The situation you presented is kind of tough, for any photographer really. With it being sunny, and plenty of snow cover on the ground, it is extremely bright, which is why you had a fast shutter speed. Along with that, you are trying to capture a very dark colored dog, and this is sending your camera for a whirlwind trying to figure out the exposure. This is the type of situation you would stop your camera from thinking and just do the thinking yourself.
Just remember, if your camera is having a hard time with the exposure, switch to manual mode and figure it out yourself.
At 50mm or less, I hardly ever use a tripod. Unless its getting dark out(this case it wasn't), there is enough light to produce a shutter speed over 1/300, fast enough to stop any camera shake at 300mm and taking away the necessity of a tripod for the most part unless your going for a special effect(deep dof). Just my .02, hopefully that helps some.

[casil403]

Thanks a bunch JJ. I always appreciate your input. I added a few extra bits of info after the fact if that helps....

[jjeling]

I think iso 200 is fine here. There is not much difference between 100 and 200. 200 just produces a fast shutter speed. I think you would have been ok going with either one here.
At 9.5 that is a pretty deep DOF for an action shot. Most action shots Ive dealt with have much less to isolate the subject and to keep the shutter speed up. Thats using much more than a 50mm lens though.
What mode were you using here? Manual, aperture or shutter priority, etc?

[casil403]

What mode were you using here? Manual, aperture or shutter priority, etc?

Shutter priority...I had shake reduction setting on also. Mostly I used the tripod and used a cable release so I could throw the frisbee (an extra set of hands almost)...I don't think I could have done it all without the tripod.

I have a "surf and snow" scene setting on the camera....would that in any way have helped or next time just slap it into Manual?
What would have been a better aperture setting than F9.5?

[tirediron]

Not really a WB issue IMO. Your camera's meter is designed to review the reflectivity of a middle-grey object (Neutral, or 18% grey). What happened here was that the camera saw the snow, assumed, as it's designed to, that it was middle grey and exposed appropriately. As has been mentioned, in situations like this, you can't [normally] use automatic modes successfully.

There are a couple of ways to deal with a situation like this. The best is to use incident metering; that is: using an incident meter which reads the light at the scene, rather than that which is reflected, but unless you have a separate light-meter, not really an option, OR the simple and easy method is to use the 'Sunny 16' rule. That is: You exposure for a bright, sunny day should be equivalent to f16 with the shutter speed the same as your ISO. In this case: F16 @ 1/200 second, or f11 @ 1/400, or f8 @ 1/800.

Like JJ said, tripod and release aren't really required here, even at 300mm (but don't forget to make sure that your shutter speed is at LEAST equal to FL if not higher when hand-holding long glass) and not using them will give you much greater freedom of composition.

[casil403]

Thanks Tirediron...So say if you were taking that photo ...or anyone else experienced/or not on here feel free to jump in as well.... what would you have done differently on your exif data, settings etc.? I really want to understand here how to change this for the better so are there some concrete settings I could try out next time?
Could you pretend we are out shooting together and you are coaching me...please tell me exactly what to do...if that's possible.
Also know that I really appreciate the advice given already. :)

[jjeling]

TI got the 18% grey thing. He mentioned the Sunny 16 rule as well which is something Ive forgotten about. I would honestly forget about using the tripod and cable release. Just make sure you have your neck strap attached securely and use it appropriatly. Ive climbed trees and crossed rivers, and taken pictures of hockey games inside the rink with the camera around my neck. It helps to get used to the feeling. If your shutter speed is fast enough, then you should really only need one hand on your camera..

[casil403]

I just did a bunch of reading on Sunny f16 rule online...I think I vaguely remember it from photo class last year...waaaaaay cheaper than a light meter! Thanks :)

[Iguanasan]

I haven't had a chance to put it to good use yet as most of the snow has melted around here (thank goodness) but I listened to Marko's podcast on shooting in the snow recently and one of the key things that I think would have helped here (based on his recommendation) was that you should have actually brought your shutter speed down or opened up your aperture to let in MORE light. The problem, as Marko stated (chime in if I'm wrong) is that the camera sees all that bright white snow and tries to block all the light causing it to be a bit underexposed. By opening up you let in more light and get a better exposure.

While casil and JJ are right, the tripod is not necessary, some times an extra pair of hands are just handy and so use it if you wish. :D

[casil403]

Thank you everyone!
I went out and gave it another go...btw, I found out I am the world's worst left-handed frisbee thrower! Waaay hard to hand hold camera in right hand and throw with left..tried throwing with right then getting camera ready with right! Holy multi-tasking Batman!
Hand held camera...no tripod
I used manual mode this time and manual white balance read on the snow.
Applied f16 rule therefore.... f16 1/125 ISO100
Center weighted metering
The first shot is without PP and crop... I cropped & pp'd 2 & 3 some to get rid of the unecessary.
Again, C&C's and input are most appreciated as it helps me understand the jist of it!

[Barefoot]

No more snow than we get here in the mid-lands of South Carolina, I managed to get it down pat in less that a half hour back this past January. I had to drive 70 miles to get to where there were more than just a few inches, but it paid off for me.

Pretty easy, really. Manual mode, spot meter, and dial in +1.5-2.0 exposure compensation.

Bookmark the homepage for the link below if you haven’t already. There’s good info to be had there.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/exposing_snow.shtml

[tirediron]

Thanks Tirediron...So say if you were taking that photo ...or anyone else experienced/or not on here feel free to jump in as well.... what would you have done differently on your exif data, settings etc.? I really want to understand here how to change this for the better so are there some concrete settings I could try out next time?
Could you pretend we are out shooting together and you are coaching me...please tell me exactly what to do...if that's possible.
Also know that I really appreciate the advice given already. :)

There aren't really any concrete settings, although the 'Sunny 16' rule is a very good guide. I usually tote my old Luna Pro around in my bag, but if I didn't have it there are one of two things, in addition to the 'Sunny 16' rule that could be used:

1. Set the camera to manual, meter the scene and open it up 1 1/2 - 2 stops, make the exposure and look at it on the cameras LCD screen; if you see nice, bright white snow with little or no clipping, you're good to go, if it's still got a grey cast, open up another half stop, if you see a lot of clipping (blown highlights) close down one third - one half stop.

2. Buy a grey card from your local camera store (< $20) and put that in an area of average brightness, set your meter mode to spot, and take the reading from the grey card. This gives the meter something with the reflectivity it expects to see. If you don't have or don't want to get a grey card, then you can use your built in one - again, set the camera to manual and the meter mode to spot, then meter the palm of your hand, and open up one full stop from there.

[EJC]

Hi Casil

I took some shots with the camera on a tripod this weekend and forgot to turn off the vibration reduction/image stabilization and they all came out slightly blurry too. The lens manual recommends IS be turned off when using a tripod. Basically the lens thinks it should be correcting every shot so it try's to compensate when it doesn't need to.

cheers
EJC

[Mad Aussie]

The guys have done a good job of explaining the technical reasons and solutions for you there Casil but you still sound a bit confused I think?

What's happening is when you are metering the scene, the amount of snow in the photo is fooling your camera into thinking the scene is brighter than it really is, so it darkens the shot. Result ... grey snow and an almost silhouetted dog.

Remembering that you are still learning I, personally, would reccomend that you try to shoot this first on shutter priority but push the Exposure Compensation up at least to '1' (1 stop). This counteracts the camera's darkening effect.
Try just shooting the snow first with 1/1000th on Shutter Priority and the Exposure Comp at 1 and see how it looks. If the snow looks reasonably white but you can still see detail in it then great ... try with the dog in the shot too.
Take note of what aperture (f-stop) the camera was choosing and then you can use Manual mode to fine tune that aperture to see if you can improve it.

I do agree that 1/1000th is fast enough to stop the action sharp handheld and EJC is right when he mentions taking the IS off when using a tripod is necessary.
I also agree that ISO 200 should be fine depending on the light level.

Ideally, for this shot I would be using an external flash that allows me to shoot at high shutter speeds like my Speedlite 580EX ll. Adding just a little fill flash to lighten Mutley up would help I think.

You mentioned Centre Weighted metering and I think that's a safer bet for you at this stage than Spot.

The other thing would be make sure your AF Points (auto focus points) are set to center so you definitely get the camera focusing on Mutley and not the trees or snow.
Also, if your camera has it or similar try using AI Focus or AI Servo (settings that force the camera to keep refocusing) to try and get Mutley focused.

Lastly I would definitely be using burst mode to increase your chances.

[Marko]

I'll use the sunny 16 rule when I'm stumped or if my meter is broken, but generally use your camera's meter or a light meter. Both are more sophisticated and more reliable than a 1 line 'rule', trust me.

In terms of the first set of shots - ok snow eh.... is tricky it's true.

In general...if the scene has a nice selection of tones it's a NORMAL scene. All that bright snow makes this a NOT normal scene

All the camera meter does is average out the tones in a scene and spit out an exposure. So shot 2 in post one, came out ok because you have about 50% black dog and about 50% white snow...this make the exposure normal.

Shot 1 has a lot more white snow which is very reflective. Shot 1 therefore is NOT normal. Basic exposure theory tells you to let in more light in cases like this. This is done by using a longer shutter speed OR a bigger aperture (smaller F-stop number).
Just as an fyi - the reverse is the same. if the dog was white on a black tar surface. The shot would have been too light, and you would have had to REDUCE the exposure...again because that scene is not 'normal'.

For me white balance is not an issue here. Snow has a blue cast when it reflects a blue sky. I might get rid of some blue in PP but I would not have fiddled with the white balance here during the exposure. I would have left it on automatic white balance.

The shot is blurry because you missed it. simple as that. It's INCREDIBLY hard to attain sharp focus on ANY moving object, especially one that moves in a jagged fashion like a dog. Your shutter speed of 1/1000 was a good choice but especially in shot 2, you focused on the snow not the dog. (Look at the snow in the background...it's sharp). With practice you'll get better but this type of shooting is difficult for ALL photographers.

In terms of which meter is best for this...imo it's your camera's meter.
You cannot use a handheld meter with a dog running at the speed of light.

For this scene, given that the snow is SO reflective and the dog likely takes up a small %age of the scene - I too would have chosen shutter priority. BUT to compensate for the non normal scene I would have set my exposure compensation to plus 1 or plus 1.5. What that does, is let in more light in every shot.

BUT

If during the shoot I kept that setting, if in some shots I were to actually get a shot with 50% black dog and 50% snow, that setting would not work for that exposure and the shot would be overexposed.

For me the best practice in a scene like this is to set a general exposure compensation amount.

If this were a basketball game, I'd expect the tones in the scene to be more even or normal so chances are i would NOT use exposure compensation in that case.

Hope all that made sense. i do realize that i repeated a lot of what other members posted...
Thx - Marko

[casil403]

Thanks Marko for your input..I read the tips on metering and i spent alot of last night reading about exposure compensation also btw.. I guess I need to get a lighter coloured dog or wait for the snow to melt...lol!

Is a grey card something I should be thinking about purchasing also?

[Marko]

Grey cards are great - but not for scenes with dogs running around. The light changes, the tones change. By the time you get the grey card set up in front of the dog, the dog had already finished the Iditarod :D

Both Grey cards and incident meters are great when subjects are static or if the light does not change that much during a certain period....and both suck for moving objects.

It sounds like you are looking for the trick, the key, the 1 device that will get you great exposure 100% of the time. It's not what you want but............
The KEY to all of this is built into your body. It's your eyes and with practice they will KNOW when a scene is not normal. It's as simple as that, when it's overly bright or dark it's not normal and adjustments need to be made.
Hope that helps - marko

[casil403]

It sounds like you are looking for the trick, the key, the 1 device that will get you great exposure 100% of the time. It's not what you want but............
The KEY to all of this is built into your body. It's your eyes and with practice they will KNOW when a scene is not normal. It's as simple as that, when it's overly bright or dark it's not normal and adjustments need to be made.


I think you hit the nail on the head there Marko...I guess I figured there must be a simple answer but again it's about learning and practise and experience...like everything else in life huh?
Thanks again to everyone for all your help with this. :)

[Marko]

My pleasure. I think this is a good teaching thread.

Do you mind if I blog it with your image?

thx - Marko

[casil403]

I'd be honoured...go for it!

[edbayani11]

this is really a 'hard' shot because of the extreme contrast, black dog in white snow. it is a compromise shot, to expose for the dog to get detaIls and lose some details in the snow, or use a fill light so as not to blow out the snow.

[tirediron]

It sounds like you are looking for the trick, the key, the 1 device that will get you great exposure 100% of the time.

Hell, I want to learn that trick! Marko, I agree that grey cards and meters aren't ideally suited for moving subjects (at least not without a LOT of duct tape), but based on the scene, I think taking incident or grey-card readings ahead of time would work just fine, provided that you remember the aspect from which you metered and photograph accordingly.

Something else to remember, is that this is the sort of image you're likely to see in a magazine and think, "How the heck did they get that so perfect when I can't?" The answer is simple: Money. The money to have a half-dozen assistants with reflectors and extra lights, the money to hire a perfectly trained dog that will respond to every command instantly, and the money to hire a world-champion frisbee thrower.

All of that aside, some excellent discussion and learning points in this thread.

[casil403]

I thought I would go out and try one more...I realize now that this is way too hard a shot for my level of expertise (still fun to try though and play) and TI is probably right about the $$ involved. My dog is hardly trained to make perfect frisbee catches on command (but his recall is pretty good and he knows about 6 or so tricks).
Anyhow I used a flash this time to light him up and it is a cloudy day. I also played with exposure compensation. This is what I came up with... 1st shot is original...2nd shot is just a crop
Exif: Shutter priority 1/180 F8.0 200ISO
Flash used Exposure -.50
center weighted
WB cloudy setting

[casil403]

Btw, I also took different settings of the same shot of snow...hardly artistic but more about learning...

[Mad Aussie]

Those last photos would come up nicely with a 'Curves' treatment in PS.
This is where you probably think we all get our whites perfect every time and yours are grey. Not true. We often adjust our whites in post processing.

[Michaelaw]

I have two black cats and they are very hard to properly expose in any situation without lots of light. If I shot them in snow I would fully expect to see black blobs where the cats stood. If I want to get a good exposure of either cat without fill flash then I have to shoot them surrounded by dark objects. It seems to me though that in your shot of the two dogs pulling at the frisbee you probably should hve been on the other side of them with the sun behind you but not directly in its path so as to cast your own shadow.

[Marko]

Thanks casil - I posted it on the blog here. http://www.photography.ca/blog/?p=267
Thx again!
Marko