Critiquing Etiquette...

[theantiquetiger]

This is stemming from my critique of TBold's Fantail shot. I am new to the photography world and critiquing other people's work.

I thought I was critiquing the shot the best that I could without sounding rude and a couple people read it as rude and a couple people read it as not rude (TBold never replied to thread).

What is the etiquette of critiquing a shot you don't care for? As for the technical side of the critique, I am not much help compared to the experts on this site, so I basically can only critique on the image itself.

In the critique, I refrained from negative words (crap, junk, horrible, etc) (and I am not saying the shot was any of these). I jet basically told him I felt he missed the mark he was trying to show in the image. One Of the other critiques in the thread said if the image didn't have commentary, he wouldn't have even know what the shot was of.

Basically, like I said in that thread, It is hard to be honest and sound friendly at the same time. People read with emotion and usually not the same emotion the poster had intended for the post to sound like.

Ammo making sense or just babbling? :headslap:

[Bambi]

Ammo making sense or just babbling? :headslap:

lol you are making sense and everyone understood that you were not trying to be rude. honest. :grouphug:

keep in mind that this forum is highly supportive of each others works. This may make us a bit soft sometimes which is not necessarily helpful. All I can tell you is that when I make a critique I make sure that mention at least one good thing and then will state what I think misses the mark but try to frame it in a way that helps the person know what to do better next time. I do this because that's how I was treated when I first started posting and it really encouraged me to keep trying and learn. :)

[Andrew]

Google photograph critique or critiquing photographs or something close. There is a lot of sources to learn from. You're right in that you can't "sound" friendly in the written word so we have to chose not only the words but the manner in which they are conveyed. I too suffer from being to abrupt not only in writing but in person and have to be reminded of it once in awhile. Good thing I have a wife that is only too willing to point out my shortcomings. I certainly wouldn't want to unintentionally offend someone. (They'll surely know if I do it on purpose though :rolleyes:)

[Gremlich]

And limit detailed critique to the Critique thread where people purposely post their images looking for such.

[theantiquetiger]

And limit detailed critique to the Critique thread where people purposely post their images looking for such.

Touché, Grem!!! :)

Sorry about that Grem, I guess I was caught up in this critiquing and didn't realize where your image was posted and you didn't have "Critique my images anywhere..." under your name.

Obviously you are a great photographer (and professional one). I hope you didn't take offensive to my layman's critique.

[theantiquetiger]

keep in mind that this forum is highly supportive of each others works. This may make us a bit soft sometimes which is not necessarily helpful.

One thing I really like about this forum is the smaller size. I joined three forums, this one and two others. The other two are huge and give no feedback, they are basically guys pounding their chest about their "masterpieces". After a few post,'I finally get a "critique" of my technique of the BW's with a slash of color left. I know they are not great shots as for technique, but I thought I had done a great job on the colorizing considering I just learned it that day. My critique was basically all colorized photos like this are garbage.

The critique did nothing but basically keep me from going back.

This site is not like this. You guys are helpful and patient (especially with me because I know I have crap right now). Like Grim said above, if some one is ASKING to be critiqued, don't sugar coat it, critique it, good or bad (without being rude).

[mellowinman]

For an example of the worst criticism I could possibly ever get, go to this thread:

http://www.photography.ca/Forums/f2/self-portrait-15772.html
(http://www.photography.ca/Forums/f2/self-portrait-15772.html)

[NorthStone]

@ theantiquetiger

I respect you for following this up and I know where you're coming from as you were trying to give your honest assessment of TBold's pic. I'm not sure if you said this but some mentioned that critiques are subjective and open to interpretation. I would suggest choosing words with care, this is not just aimed at you but anyone. Taking time over a critique is a good thing in any case as it allows us to develop more cogently reasons why we like or dislike something and make word choices to be both constructive and friendly. This is easier said than done but I think it's something we should aim for.

Regards,
NorthStone

[thoughton]

My own personal technique is to look at the photo and decide what I like and what I don't like, but then when I post I talk about the bad stuff first, and end on the good stuff. The idea is that even if I accidentally rub someone the wrong way with the bad news, hopefully the good news at the end cheers them up a bit :) It can sometimes be a challenge to find the good stuff, but there's always something. A whole bunch of smilies sometimes helps too :)

Of course, some people simply don't want critique, they just enjoy sharing and pats on the back, so try and be sure that they actually want constructive criticism.

[Wicked Dark]

and before everyone gets all up in arms, go back to the fantail thread and read what the Original Poster thought about theantiquetiger's critique.

[NorthStone]

I don't see any comments from TBond on theantiquetiger's critique.

[Wicked Dark]

Exactly.

[Marko]

I appreciate the civil back and forth here.

The only (possibly) touchy additional point that i want to bring up - is that if you are self-admittedly new to photography, then you have a lot to learn.
When you still have a lot to learn you should be more careful of the lessons you try to teach though critiques. Being softer with the critique makes sense to me in these cases.

I don't know what point you are suggesting about the OP not answering back WD.....the not answering could mean anything good or bad.


anyway...I'm sensitive about the way this forum is run and I've been running forums for a decade. Rudeness wrecks forums and i want this to be a friendly learning environment. I may have exaggerated my reaction on the critique at hand it seems.....but I'm okay with this because it almost never happens.

Please know that I will almost always err on the side of friendliness and the side of the underdog....maybe it's part of being Canadian - but you're are stuck with me.

[Wicked Dark]

the point is that unless the OP is upset then why jump in before you know it to be true? If the object of the alleged rudeness doesn't find it so, it doesn't matter. If Tbold privately PMed to complain, that's one thing, if not why assume Tbold will be upset? I wonder if anyone would have said theantiquetiger was rude if you hadn't first said so. and one person's definition of rude seems to be vastly different than others and so smothers conversation further for fear of committing a faux pas. at least it does me. Now I don't dare post anything except sunshine and puppies and I know that won't help anyone improve. As I said, I'm not proposing a free-for-all flamefest, but I do think this reaction premature and too narrow to be inclusive of all temperaments.

[Marko]

If the OP (as a newbie) chooses not to return because of a rude post and the feeling of a 'hostile' environment then we can never know can we? It happens all the time on many forums.
I already admitted to possibly over-reacting here but time will tell.

[Andrew]

Some posts are just not very good and we've all seen them yet they still get the conciliatory "Nice shot" or similar from someone trying to be supportive. "Nice shot" can really mean "Nice shot" and be worthy or it can mean "Hmmm, So-So, keep trying, I'm being polite" If we are to be over-sensitive and leave only frivolous feel-good comments for photos outside of the critique pages then I don't see the point. Why would you post anywhere except in the critique forum if you expect honest feedback you can learn from? If you want to post for people to see a favourite photo or just carry on a conversation then the many forums here are good for that but the meat is in the critique forum. The rest is just fluff. Critique doesn't mean just criticize though and to be helpful the points for improvement need to be accompanied by suggestions on how to do that. We're all not orators so sometimes if it's a little rough around the edges oh well. If all you want are the feel-good comments about your photos then go ask your mom.

[mellowinman]

Some posts are just not very good and we've all seen them yet they still get the conciliatory "Nice shot" or similar from someone trying to be supportive. "Nice shot" can really mean "Nice shot" and be worthy or it can mean "Hmmm, So-So, keep trying, I'm being polite" If we are to be over-sensitive and leave only frivolous feel-good comments for photos outside of the critique pages then I don't see the point. Why would you post anywhere except in the critique forum if you expect honest feedback you can learn from? If you want to post for people to see a favourite photo or just carry on a conversation then the many forums here are good for that but the meat is in the critique forum. The rest is just fluff. Critique doesn't mean just criticize though and to be helpful the points for improvement need to be accompanied by suggestions on how to do that. We're all not orators so sometimes if it's a little rough around the edges oh well. If all you want are the feel-good comments about your photos then go ask your mom.

My mom is very critical of my photos.

GREAT.

[Wicked Dark]

I agree Andrew that if a person puts a photo in the critique section that she isn't asking for smoke blown up her butt. To be so thin skinned as to take offense at what people say about your photo when you've so offered it speaks volumes; you're not ready for prime time. As I said, I don't want a flame-war in there, but seriously it will become meaningless crap if everyone is now afraid to say anything without drawing hearts and rainbows around it.

and Marko, my internet friend, who knows now what that person thought about the post or even if they saw it...now their reaction is assured to be negative.

[theantiquetiger]

The only (possibly) touchy additional point that i want to bring up - is that if you are self-admittedly new to photography, then you have a lot to learn

Mark, I see it the other way. As someone new to the photography world, I should not hold back on my critique. I usually state my sub-novice expertise in my critique (I forgot in this particular critique). I feel someone should not only critique the image, but critique my critique as well (which was done in this case). Like I've said before, I cannot critique on the technical side of the shot, so at this time, all I can offer is on the image itself. The "critique"of my critique on that thread helped me a lot.

Does this make sense?

[mellowinman]

Mark, I see it the other way. As someone new to the photography world, I should not hold back on my critique. I usually state my sub-novice expertise in my critique (I forgot in this particular critique). I feel someone should not only critique the image, but critique my critique as well (which was done in this case). Like I've said before, I cannot critique on the technical side of the shot, so at this time, all I can offer is on the image itself. The "critique"of my critique on that thread helped me a lot.

Does this make sense?

I know that when I put a photo in here for critique, I am really looking for technical critique, and for people who are experienced, and have a good eye, to call to my attention any mistakes I may have made. Of course, I am supremely self-confident, and could easily disagree. Some things, like "what the photos says to me" for example, are purely subjective.

That doesn't make such critiques less relevant, of course.

I am a largely self-taught photographer, who has managed to make money doing portraits without necessarily having the kind of technical knowledge that most at this forum have. I value their insight a lot, and consider it a gift. It's training, and it's FREE training.

I can't always tell them to use a different focal length or aperture setting, but I can tell them what I would do differently, and that's why I sometimes edit their photos. I love my photoshop, but I wouldn't have to use it as much if I were better trained in getting the details right the first time.

[Andrew]

Antique guy, I hope my past comments haven't appeared one sided. Again being quite frank, as per your own description of yourself as someone new to photography and being sub-novice I would have to suggest that the comments you have offered, at best, are an opinion. You have stated you don't yet have the knowledge to offer a credible critique someone would value. I don't believe the initial comments were out of line from someone who knew what they were talking about but your self-description along with other photos haven't shown yourself worthy of taking seriously the comments you've left. You are saying you don't even know what you are doing yourself so how can you even imagine offering an opinion anyone will pay credence to? When you get the experience to not only point out shortcomings in your own work and others photography and can offer some valid encouragement then I suggest you look inward and challenge your own competency. As an example I would offer your post on not knowing how to judge basic focus problems. Until then, offer your suggestions based on your very limited experience and temper it with the same consideration you would expect in return. If you're willing to take comments that your own work is just plain sh*t without encouragement on how to improve then let people know and so be it. I am my own best or worst critic depending on how you look at it so I don't have much I feel is good enough to post, When I have though, I know those on this forum whose opinion I appreciate and take to heart. At this moment you have a long way to go. Learn the photography and work towards being one of those people.

[theantiquetiger]

Andrew,

I would agree with you, but actually Iggy suggested to me, that as a novice, I should critique as much, if not more than the experts. He suggested that by me critiquing others, I will learn to critique my own work better. Back in the day when I did BW film in school, I remember shooting prints and getting ready to discard them, but someone in class or the teacher would stop me and have me study it again. I didn't have the skills to critique my own work. One of the prints the teacher stopped memfrom discarding was one of the best shots I had all semester.

If you look at my thread, "pictures of three" or "Point of Focus", there is a photo of three vases sitting on my coffee table. I shot it this afternoon just practicing focusing. That picture of those vases (IMO) is my best shot since picking the camera back up, but when I first took it, it did nothing for me. Now, I really like what I did with the shot, the natural lighting, the couches just out of focus, etc. The point I'm trying to make here is, I may have a great shot of something and not realize it because I don't think to critique myself, and as Iggy said, critiquing other people will help me critique myself.

[theantiquetiger]

Here is that picture. It was just a test shot for practice and now, a few hours later, I love how it came out. I know it is no masterpiece, but if I would have just discarded it and not critiqued it, I wouldn't have noticed the improvement (if just slight) from a similar shot I took just a week ago

Like I said in the last post, this image has alot of stuff I like that I didn't notice at first w/o critiquing. I like how the lines of the couches leads your eyes to the vases, or how the vases and coffee table make a pyramid. Plus I like the OOF of the couches and background.

I've wouldn't have noticed all this stuff if I wouldn't have critiqued myself.

When I get home in the morning, I need to see what that blue dot is under the cushion. I have two young ones, so I'm afraid to look!!!

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r198/theantiquetiger/photography/3vases.jpg

[Andrew]

Sorry, if that is in fact what he said I have to disagree totally with Iggy. If you don't have the knowledge and base opinions on something you don't know what you're talking about it's just misdirected babbling. (I'll concede he may know more about critiquing than I do). As for your own critique it's too favourable to what you want to see. Being overly critical,,,, it's a large brown smear with no contrast. Just plain and dull. It's under exposed and your vases tilt to the right. A coffee table?? Very unimaginative. See? Criticism without direction is useless. As I said before though, there are lots of valued opinions on this forum we'll both learn to benefit from. Many positive and many negative. That's what makes it interesting and provides each of us fodder to grow on. What new routes can we learn to explore? You and Iggy can pat yourselves on the back and I'll continue to sit on the sidelines looking for those photos and comments that grab me and make me sit up and notice. Nothing positive or negative, just different. That's what makes it nice here.

'Nuff said.

[theantiquetiger]

We have actually changed the topic of the thread from "Critiquing Etiquitte" to "Novice People Critiquing", but I will follow:

Here is the exact words Iggy suggested to me when I did my first critique on this board and I stated that I should be the last person to be doing critiques because of my lack of knowledge and skills:

Iggy - "First off, Antiquetiger, the best way to learn more about photography is to spend time critiquing both other's work and your own so you are exactly the type of person to offer critique"

I took this as a learning tool as he suggested. The few critiques I've done (other than the one with TBond because I forgot), I state that I am a sub-novice and to take my critique with a grain of salt (should be a block of salt lick).

Your critique of my image above does not bother me. I didn't even notice the tilting of vases. You say it's under exposed, I like the darkness. Like I stated in the prior post, I know it's no masterpiece, I just notice the improvements of similar shots of the same vases.

[Bambi]

not having technical knowledge means that perhaps you should critisize the technical aspects of it. However, anyone and everyone has the ability to express what they like or don't like about a photo.

[Andrew]

I fully agree Bambi. Nobody has disputed someones taste. We all like different things and that's what makes the world go around. I critique just about every photo I see. To myself.

[Marko]

I appreciate the back and forth here. I'm thinking I might need to write something up that we can refer to regularly. I'll consult mods and members on this.
This has generally been a "rules" free forum...but it's getting large enough that it needs a few loose ones.

Thx - Marko

[Andrew]

I actually enjoy the banter here but recognize I should have taken a suggestion earlier and not got into a flaming discussion. Sometimes I'm too stupid to just let it go. Rules on expressing ourselves? MY apologies if this hasn't gone as it should have. I'll consider it ended for my part.

[tbond]

Being the recipient of the critique, I would like to say thanks for the honesty.
I do want to know when an image doesn't do the job, but I also want to know what could have been done better, and I realise that there was very little information provided to assist anyone critiquing the image. I have added some more information to the original thread in terms of the camera settings used, etc.
In the educational world we have a little axiom about critiquing someone's work that has served me well. It may be of use in this arena as well, especially as emotions are tied into creating, viewing and responding to images.
The concept is to make a sandwich of the critique. Place the the meat of the critique between two positives.
Be honest because a critique is useless otherwise. however place the meat of the critique in a sandwich.
Regardless of all that, I liked the honesty and I appreciated comment. So many people seem to look and say nothing.
cheers.

[theantiquetiger]

The concept is to make a sandwich of the critique. Place the the meat of the critique between two positives.
Be honest because a critique is useless otherwise. however place the meat of the critique in a sandwich.

As the giver of the awkward critique, I am glad you came back to the forum and to this thread. I like your assessment of how to critique as in a sandwich. I will use your advice in the future.

[Iguanasan]

Well, since my name was bantered about I feel I should pop in a comment here as well :)

Offering critique is, I think, one of the best ways to improve your own photographs as you can see what others have done and learn from their mistakes as well as your own. That being said, I wouldn't suggest that anyone offer technical critique on a subject which they do not currently understand. I'm not saying that's happened here, just clarifying my position. For instance, you could say, "I don't like the lighting on the subject." if you do not feel it's pleasing. If you don't really know much about lighting then I would refrain from saying "You should have had your main light mounted up and to the left and your rim light 1 stop under", etc, etc.

tbond's idea of the critique sandwich is excellent. I try to be as honest as possible when critiquing but I always look for positives and I try to ensure that my critique offers possible suggestions on how to improve. Whether we admit it or not, many of our photographic works are quite personal and I know one of the reasons I've stayed on this forum is because the critiques are honest and kind. I see no reason why critique must be harsh or mean.

[Marko]

Glad you came back tbond and thanks for the input. I also like the idea of a sandwich :)
I'm gonna try and write something up that we can refer to regularly as a rough guideline.

Thanks everyone!
Marko