Indoor events - low light, lots of motion, my worst nightmare...

[Ben H]

Ok, so this weekend I was taking shots at a kids party. This was in the daytime, but in a marquee, so the light levels were low but not frighteningly low.

However, with 50 or so five-years-olds running around, dancing, and generally causing mayhem, I found it tough to get shots I was happy with - I did ok (could do much better I think), but am looking for tips and advice on the best way to handle these situations.

Gear wise, I'm on a Canon 450D, inbuilt flash only. Now, I was mostly using the Canon flash-sync speed feature, which means the shutter is held open after the flash fires to bring up the background, to avoid those nasty flash-only type shots. This does result in better pictures, but obviously it's harder to avoid motion blur. When the kids were still, it was possible to get ok shots with or without flash, but add some motion and it gets tricky.

On the other hand, with a fixed flash sync speed, I was getting the usual flash-type shots - very bright subjects in the foreground, with a very dark background - no problems with motion blur here, but these pictures just look pretty horrible in general. I did use the time to try out things and learnt quite a bit over the course of the day, but it would be nice to get some comments on this from the community.

So - is the best course of action here to buy a larger flash for the camera? Will this illuminate more of the scene and give better, sharper pictures overall without those nasty holiday flash snapshots? What could I do if for the time being I wasn't planning on buying more gear?

Thanks in advance!

[mindforge]

Gear wise, I'm on a Canon 450D, inbuilt flash only. Now, I was mostly using the Canon flash-sync speed feature, which means the shutter is held open after the flash fires to bring up the background, to avoid those nasty flash-only type shots. This does result in better pictures, but obviously it's harder to avoid motion blur. When the kids were still, it was possible to get ok shots with or without flash, but add some motion and it gets tricky.
What ISO were you shooting at? I try to stay from 100-400. You need to use a flash. You have to if you want to catch them, plain and simple. A flash freezes them a lot better because of the fact that it is not just adding light... it is adding light really fast, faster than your shutter, unless you have a really good flash that fires over 1/250th which is where mine is.



On the other hand, with a fixed flash sync speed, I was getting the usual flash-type shots - very bright subjects in the foreground, with a very dark background - no problems with motion blur here, but these pictures just look pretty horrible in general. I did use the time to try out things and learnt quite a bit over the course of the day, but it would be nice to get some comments on this from the community.
Don't use synch, unless you are going for the tracer effect. You just need your straight up flash. You have to make a choice. I love shooting with natural light for the most part but indoors at a party with the lights lower you gotta bounce your flash, hopefully off a white ceiling.



So - is the best course of action here to buy a larger flash for the camera? Will this illuminate more of the scene and give better, sharper pictures overall without those nasty holiday flash snapshots? What could I do if for the time being I wasn't planning on buying more gear?
Yeah. You gotta have a flash if you want to shoot these situations. Bounce the flash though. There are all sorts of ways to DIY your own bouncing. If you know there will be certain areas you will be shooting toss a white board on one wall that you can bounce off of.

Kids are low to the ground, you could build a little flash kicker (from skateboarding terms). I have a cardboard box, well cut into a triangle that I can slide on one side of a wall. When I get low it gives me something to bounce light from and it reflects it up. The best thing though, a white windshield sun protector/visor thing. Fold it out and just walk around with it.

[Ben H]

Thanks for the comments - very useful.


What ISO were you shooting at? I try to stay from 100-400.

Yep, I don't like going higher than 400 really...


You need to use a flash. You have to if you want to catch them, plain and simple. A flash freezes them a lot better because of the fact that it is not just adding light... it is adding light really fast, faster than your shutter, unless you have a really good flash that fires over 1/250th which is where mine is.

Ok cool. So my problem turns therefore into a "how can I improve my flash photography" question.


Don't use synch, unless you are going for the tracer effect. You just need your straight up flash. You have to make a choice. I love shooting with natural light for the most part but indoors at a party with the lights lower you gotta bounce your flash, hopefully off a white ceiling.

Ok - I've heard this term before, and I'm assuming it means that instead of shooting a direct flash at your subject, you instead fire it off in a different direction - so in your example, I presume this means you angle your flash unit towards the ceiling, so instead of getting a point-source fired at the subject, you get a diffused light source coming back from the ceiling, thus avoiding that direct flash horribleness. Makes sense, and was what I suspected.

I'm currently unable to do this as the inbuilt flash only fires forwards - I'd need to buy a flash unit that can be tilted for this I guess.


Yeah. You gotta have a flash if you want to shoot these situations. Bounce the flash though. There are all sorts of ways to DIY your own bouncing. If you know there will be certain areas you will be shooting toss a white board on one wall that you can bounce off of.

Thanks - in this particular case, it was a white marquee, so although the surfaces weren't even, they were white and could probably be bounced off fairly well. Are there any examples you know of online where I can see these kinds of shots with direct flash, and bounced flash, so I can see the differences for myself? Edit: Ah, I'm sure I can google for this stuff, so I'll have a nose around...


Kids are low to the ground, you could build a little flash kicker (from skateboarding terms). I have a cardboard box, well cut into a triangle that I can slide on one side of a wall. When I get low it gives me something to bounce light from and it reflects it up. The best thing though, a white windshield sun protector/visor thing. Fold it out and just walk around with it.

Yeah - while I'm sure that works well, it's always a tradeoff at these kinds of things between what the shots end up like, and how unobtrusive the photographer is during the event. Certainly from what you say, the first thing I need to do is be able to bounce the flash and get a feel for what I can do with that and the results I get.

Great, that definitely makes sense - thanks!

[Travis]

I looked up your camera (i shoot nikon) it seems pretty good....

you should be able to push your iso up to 800....

a hot shoe flash is a small investment..... it will totally change the quality of your flash pictures... make sure the flash head pivots and bounce it off the ceiling... as mindforge said you can rig up devices for your on camera flash... but it really doesn't have the output for this...

another option is to buy yourself an inexpensive 50mm f1.8 lens (i think canons are $120)... this lens is standard tool and can bail you out of situations like this... with fast moving kids you might need all three..... higher iso, bounce flash, and fast 1.8 glass...

If you feel obtrusive with the flash pump the iso to 800 and get a 50mm, then change the shutter release to burst instead of single and start blasting away... you can usually get one or two good ones out of five...

[mindforge]

You can use an index card to redirect your flash to the ceiling but you lose quite a bit of flash, there are other ways too. Just google DIY photography and you might find some useful stuff.

A good flash separates a novice from a hobby photographer... knowing how to really use your flash and off camera flashes separates the hobby photographer from the professional. Not just owning a good hot shoe flash, but knowing how to use it is really important.

Bouncing your flash off of objects is really important but even more so is getting your flash off of your camera. Once you can use a couple flashes to take pictures you can achieve some really awesome shots. I'm not saying that it is required but if you had a flash behind a white sheet that ran the length of where the kids were playing you could also use a stronger flash on your camera and get great pictures.. I mean really, really good ones with diffused and direct light.

I'll take a couple pictures tonight to show you the difference. I'll just take them of my son's tricycle again.

The foldout car window thing is really unobtrusive... drops quick, take a few shots and move on... When they get the pictures people will be happy about the slight intrusion.

[Ben H]

a hot shoe flash is a small investment..... it will totally change the quality of your flash pictures... make sure the flash head pivots and bounce it off the ceiling... as mindforge said you can rig up devices for your on camera flash... but it really doesn't have the output for this...

Yep, I think I will certainly go this route. It may be a small investment but when I've already bought the camera, a second lens, a range of accessories, a studio lighting kit, a backdrop system, reflector, stands etc, every couple of hundred quid starts adding up real quick! :eek: :)


another option is to buy yourself an inexpensive 50mm f1.8 lens (i think canons are $120)... this lens is standard tool and can bail you out of situations like this... with fast moving kids you might need all three..... higher iso, bounce flash, and fast 1.8 glass...

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that - thanks for the tip.


If you feel obtrusive with the flash pump the iso to 800 and get a 50mm, then change the shutter release to burst instead of single and start blasting away... you can usually get one or two good ones out of five...

Yep, I was doing that anyway and trying it out - however it doesn't work too well with the inbuilt flash because it takes so long to charge. With a semi-decent external flash, can you feasibly use burst mode and have the flash respond quickly enough?

[Ben H]

You can use an index card to redirect your flash to the ceiling but you lose quite a bit of flash, there are other ways too. Just google DIY photography and you might find some useful stuff.

Yeah I found some info on this - to be honest, I'd rather invest in doing it properly than rigging up ugly hacks, because it looks a bit... cheapskate ;)


Bouncing your flash off of objects is really important but even more so is getting your flash off of your camera. Once you can use a couple flashes to take pictures you can achieve some really awesome shots. I'm not saying that it is required but if you had a flash behind a white sheet that ran the length of where the kids were playing you could also use a stronger flash on your camera and get great pictures.. I mean really, really good ones with diffused and direct light.

I do have a couple of studio strobes but in this instance I really didn't want to add more stuff standing around on tripods - and it wasn't like the pictures were that important anyway - it was more to see what I could get and as a learning experience. So from what you are saying, the way to get the best practical results in these situations is to ideally use a hot-shoe flash *and* a second external slaved flash, together with a bit of knowledge of how to use them (bounce, diffusing etc).

Cool - I'm not quite ready to make that investment, but certainly if something came along where the pics were important I probably would.


I'll take a couple pictures tonight to show you the difference. I'll just take them of my son's tricycle again.

If you could do that that would be really helpful - thanks!

[Marko]

very good advice in this thread :highfive:

I'd just like to add NOT to be afraid of higher ISOs with the camera you have. 800 or 1000 are speeds that I frequently use when I have to. Keep in mind that the higher ISO the easier it will be capture the indoor ambient background light when it is available. If the image is for the web or smaller reproductions, you'll likely be fine.

Posting the actual shots will get you even better and more precise advice.

Hope that helps

Marko

[Travis]

Yep, I was doing that anyway and trying it out - however it doesn't work too well with the inbuilt flash because it takes so long to charge. With a semi-decent external flash, can you feasibly use burst mode and have the flash respond quickly enough?


I meant no flash with rapid fire shutter.... just the 50mm prime wide open and high iso...

flash will usually slow down or halt your FPS until it has recycled....

[Ben H]

I'd just like to add NOT to be afraid of higher ISOs with the camera you have. 800 or 1000 are speeds that I frequently use when I have to. Keep in mind that the higher ISO the easier it will be capture the indoor ambient background light when it is available. If the image is for the web or smaller reproductions, you'll likely be fine.

Yep. The reason I haven't gone up that high is simply I haven't done enough testing to be confident in those settings. My old camera (Fuji S5500) was unusable at 400 due to noise, so I'm wary of going higher. Of course the Canon is *much* better - but the lesson for me here is to understand the performance at those settings and make sure I'm happy with the results, rather than shooting at a setting I'm not familiar with and end up with unusable results.

So, I definitely need to do some more low light shooting and testing to get a handle on what ranges work best with my particular setup.


Posting the actual shots will get you even better and more precise advice.

I'm sure - at this stage though, the general advice is enough to point me in the right direction - when I've put much of this stuff into practice and I feel I'm achieving closer to my best, *then* I'll put the shots up for more focused critique :)

[Ben H]

I meant no flash with rapid fire shutter.... just the 50mm prime wide open and high iso...

flash will usually slow down or halt your FPS until it has recycled....

Ah ok, gotcha. Thanks again...

[Marko]

Quote:
Originally Posted by marko http://www.photography.ca/Forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.photography.ca/Forums/showthread.php?p=5430#post5430)
Posting the actual shots will get you even better and more precise advice.

I'm sure - at this stage though, the general advice is enough to point me in the right direction - when I've put much of this stuff into practice and I feel I'm achieving closer to my best, *then* I'll put the shots up for more focused critique.

It's up to you of course, but if we see the photo and make suggestions - you will learn faster AND you can go back to the thread with your picture as a reference to apply and reapply what you've learned. :twocents:

[mindforge]

You know, if you want to test out low light shooting situation it is pretty easy. Just do it indoors, close the blinds and maybe use a dark sheet on a window or two... don't kill all the light, just create a low light situation.

To get things moving around, you can do a couple things. Use a kid's toy. I have a three year old and he has a few radio controlled cars, a walking dinosaur robot, and all kinds of automatic moving stuff. Try to freeze these things and jot down some notes. I like to just sit on the couch and keep track of where I am headed on a piece of paper.

I hate going past 400 ISO. I will but only after I have exhausted other options.

[Ben H]

Yeah - I think I can probably press my cat into service as test apparatus.. ;)

[mindforge]

Yeah - I think I can probably press my cat into service as test apparatus.. ;)

An assistant with a laser pen can do wonders.