Entry-level DSLR shootout

[ret]

1. Canon XS
2. Canon XSi
3. Nikon D40
4. Nikon D60
5. Olympus E420
6. Olympus E520
7. Pentax KD200
8. Sony A200
9. Sony A300
10. Sony A350

which one would you go for?

[PaulaLynn]

I notice mine (Xti) isn't listed, so I will have to vote for the Xsi... ;)

[tegan]

1. Canon XS
2. Canon XSi
3. Nikon D40
4. Nikon D60
5. Olympus E420
6. Olympus E520
7. Pentax KD200
8. Sony A200
9. Sony A300
10. Sony A350

which one would you go for?

As I remember the lab tests, the Sony A350 was faster than all of the above in metering and autofocus. Its dynamic range optimizer also worked better than the dynamic range systems on the other cameras too. The live view is faster and switch based rather than menu based like the other cameras.
The live view combined with the tiltable screen makes it extremely useful for street shooting, holding the camera above the crowd, or low level shooting.
The LCD also displays a live histogram in preview.

Tegan

[ret]

The live view is faster and switch based rather than menu based like the other cameras. The live view combined with the tiltable screen makes it extremely useful for street shooting, holding the camera above the crowd, or low level shooting. The LCD also displays a live histogram in preview.

Tegan

I like the tilt feature on the Sony's DSLRs :) .... But some of the other features that you described are on the Olympus too, iirc

[tegan]

I like the tilt feature on the Sony's DSLRs :) .... But some of the other features that you described are on the Olympus too, iirc

However important to DSLR owners, autofocus and tracking are more effective on the Sony camera. On the Olympus the shutter needs to be partially depressed in order for autofocus to start working. On the Sony, it starts working as soon as you start raising the camera to your eye. The Sony and the other cameras also according to reviews work much better than the Olympus in low light. Having shot in the pitch dark of a coal mine I can certaily verify that other cameras work well in low light.

As to live view, I would check out how the live view works on the Olympus.
There are different variations of live view and according to Popular Photography, the Sony A350 has the best one.

Tegan

[ret]

However important to DSLR owners, autofocus and tracking are more effective on the Sony camera. On the Olympus the shutter needs to be partially depressed in order for autofocus to start working. On the Sony, it starts working as soon as you start raising the camera to your eye. The Sony and the other cameras also according to reviews work much better than the Olympus in low light. Having shot in the pitch dark of a coal mine I can certaily verify that other cameras work well in low light.

Tegan

I haven't had problems with shooting at night with the Olympus but ofc I haven't tried out others to be able to compare. May be Olympus performance in dark could be hindered by its comparatively smaller four-thirds sensor

So which camera[s] did you use to shoot in the coal mine?

[Travis]

If you are planning on becoming more serious in photography you should not get entrapped into features of entry level DSLR's. When you start buying cameras and lenses you are buying into a system. As such, it should be the system you are judging and making you decisions on.

How serious is company you are choosing?

How long have they committed to making advanced photography products?

What is the lens selection like?

What is the availability of used lenses like in the market? And will those used lenses mount and be functional with new bodies?

What is resale value of the lenses you want to get rid of? Is there a market for them?

How will third party software companies(ie photoshop) prioritize the RAW development software algorithms for the system you choose?

How will third party lens manufacturers (ie sigma) prioritize lens releases for the system you choose?

If you use internet forums to advance your knowledge of the system choosen, are there healthy active robust forums dedicated to it?

What are the warranties offered? What is the general turn around time of warranty or non warranty repair? What is the reputation for warranty work?

What are tho pro's using? Why do you think they are using whatever they have chosen?

and others questions that I'm sure I've missing...


ALL DSLR camera bodies can make great images in the hands of a some one who knows what he/she is doing. No gizmo feature of today's camera makes images any more stunning than images made 20 years ago. Half of DSLR advancements are purely marketing hype the other half are helpful to making good images but not necessary. If you are semi serious in photography as a hobby or profession, you will most likely end up buying at least another 12 bodies over your lifetime SO LOOK AT tHE SYSTEM YoU ARE BUYING INTO. Once you start buying multiple lenses, flashes, teleconverters, remotes, cables, filters, and other accessories it becomes harder and harder to get out of the system you have chosen.

[tegan]

Contrary to Travis, I don't commit myself to any system. All cameras have their strong points. Some of their weak points can be worked around, but others not so. I see no advantage in a system. Lens change and better ones come out at even the same focal length for the same camera. Moreover if you are constantly changing lenses during a shoot, then you are probably missing more shots than you are getting. It is also advantageous to take a small cheaper camera into some situations such as night shooting in an unfamiliar city, rock climbing, or shooting from skis.

I go for camera design, features, and ease of use because along with quality lenses that is what gets the shot, not the system.

Tegan

[Travis]

Well... most prosumers and pro's end up with a combination like this..

-A main body
-Wide landscape lens in the 12-24mm area
-Macro portraiture prime in the 100mm area
-A nifty 50 and 85mm prime
-a mid range zoom in the 20 - 70 range
-a tele zoom in the 70 - 200 range
-if into wildlife a 300 or 400mm prime, or 300 to 500mm zoom
-teleconverters
-a back up body (usually a lighter or older body)
-a hot shoe flash
-if your camera supports multiple flash triggering add 2 to 3 more flash units

This is a system... the bodies come and go and the rest of the lenses/gear work around the new bodies you buy. If a newer lens comes out then we are back to my original points. Is there demand for your old lens? Is there good resale value in your old lens? Can you get rid of it quickly to free up money for your new lens?

[ret]

Today, I checked the Sony A300 and the Pentax D20

Only positive, I found with the Sony was its tiltable screen .... The buttons were badly laid out. The live view switch is on the top panel of camera which I didn't like. The view through the viewfinder was not that inviting. the kit was priced at $649

The Pentax D20 on the other hand felt sturdy. Mostly things were well-laid out. At $1200 for the kit, it looked like a good buy for those who want a sturdy camera

Didn't get a chance to check the image quality and the menu in detail as I just browsed through them so the above is based on my initial impression

[tegan]

Today, I checked the Sony A300 and the Pentax D20

Only positive, I found with the Sony was its tiltable screen .... The buttons were badly laid out. The live view switch is on the top panel of camera which I didn't like. The view through the viewfinder was not that inviting. the kit was priced at $649

The Pentax D20 on the other hand felt sturdy. Mostly things were well-laid out. At $1200 for the kit, it looked like a good buy for those who want a sturdy camera

Didn't get a chance to check the image quality and the menu in detail as I just browsed through them so the above is based on my initial impression

Well, Popular Photography disagrees with you in labelling the Sony A350 as the best in the area of ease of use, so they obviously think it is well laid out.
I tend to agree with them, but to each his own.

Tegan

[ret]

Well, Popular Photography disagrees with you in labelling the Sony A350 as the best in the area of ease of use, so they obviously think it is well laid out. I tend to agree with them, but to each his own.

Tegan

I haven't read Popular Photography but spoke from my little experience with the A300. Also when you look into the Viewfinder and filp the display selector to the live view mode, you can actually see the mirror lifting in the viewfinder, which i found to be crude .... May be Sony employs a different technology for switching from Viewfinder to LiveView .... The view in the LiveView was so dark that it was difficult to see properly while in the ViewFinder you could see things properly

I just read Digital review's take on Sony A350 vs Nikon D80 (http://www.digitalreview.ca/content/Sony-Alpha-A350-Compared-to-Nikon-D80-pg1.shtml) and the A350 doesn't seem to compare favorably with the aging D80!!!

below is the quote from ergonomics and operations section:


Sony Alpha A350 Compared to Nikon D80 SLR: Ergonomics and Operation

For some camera manufacturers ergonomics seems like an afterthought. In the field, ergonomics can make the difference between a winning shot and a shot missed. The Nikon D80 features two command dials for changing camera settings, located on the front and back portion of the grip similar to the design on the higher end Nikon D300.

One of the benefits that this offers on the Nikon D80 when changing exposure settings is that you can rotate the subcommand dial to select the desired aperture value while you rotate the main command dial to change the shutter speed.

You can easily make adjustments with your index finger controlling the sub command dial and your thumb controlling the main command dial while looking through the camera . This can be a real benefit when it comes to adjusting values quickly in manual exposure modes and when changing camera settings in general.

With the Sony Alpha A350 there is only one control dial located on the top of the grip. To adjust shutter speed settings you rotate the top command dial. To change the aperture when you are in manual mode you have to push the Av button located on the back of the camera while rotating the command dial. In Aperture Priority mode rotating the top command dial changes the aperture settings.

The dial control wheel on the Sony A350 is recessed and fairly small, making it harder to use compared to the larger more protruding control wheel dials on the Nikon D80.

The D80 features two easily accessible operation buttons on the top right grip portion of the camera. The Autofocus (AF) button allows for the selection of focus modes, and the Shooting Mode button provides options for shooting rate, self timer and remote trigger control settings. There are also separate dedicated buttons for selecting metering and exposure compensation making it easier and faster to change these settings compared to on the Sony A350.

The Sony features a Function Button on the back of the camera that once pressed activates a Menu were you can select among frequently used functions including metering, white balance, DRO settings and more.
By pushing the AF button on the Nikon D80 you can activate one of three focus modes: AF-A Auto select (default setting), AF-S Single-servo AF, AF-C Continuous-servo. Again this feature would have to be activated by pushing the Function Menu on the A350 and then selecting your desired option.
The Shooting mode button on the D80 allows you to control how the camera takes photographs: one at a time, in a continuous sequence, with a timed shutter-release delay, or with a remote control. There is also a Function Button located on the front of the Nikon D80 that is designed and can be customized for quick access to a range of functions.

In terms of operation and usability, the main menu and feature control buttons on the Nikon D80 are nested within a grooved channel on the back of the camera. This has the effect of raising the buttons and making them stand out relative to the surrounding area, while still keeping them parallel with the rest of the back of the camera. This helps prevent accidental button activation while the camera is in use.

The buttons on the Nikon D80 are also slightly taller and wider than the rounded buttons on the Sony A350. The general design makes the D80 buttons easier to push and operate (especially if you are wearing winter gloves) compared to the recessed button design on the Sony Alpha A350. On a couple of occasions we found that we had to push down harder or twice to get the desired button to respond and activate on our Sony Alpha A350 evaluation unit.

One other Nikon D80 design advantage that can be seen above is that the "Delete" and "Playback" buttons are located at the top of the camera, which makes it easy to activate these frequently used buttons comfortably with your left thumb while holding the camera in a normal position.

With the Sony A350 we found while holding the camera with both hands, you have to extend your left thumb unnaturally backwards to reach these same two buttons which are now located at the bottom, or you have to change your grip and move your hand further down the base of the camera, activate the button and then move your hand back to a comfortable shooting hold.

[tegan]

Sony Alpha A350 Compared to Nikon D80 SLR: Ergonomics and Operation

To deal with part of your quote, RET

For some camera manufacturers ergonomics seems like an afterthought. In the field, ergonomics can make the difference between a winning shot and a shot missed. The Nikon D80 features two command dials for changing camera settings, located on the front and back portion of the grip similar to the design on the higher end Nikon D300.

One of the benefits that this offers on the Nikon D80 when changing exposure settings is that you can rotate the subcommand dial to select the desired aperture value while you rotate the main command dial to change the shutter speed.

You can easily make adjustments with your index finger controlling the sub command dial and your thumb controlling the main command dial while looking through the camera . This can be a real benefit when it comes to adjusting values quickly in manual exposure modes and when changing camera settings in general. (END of your quote)

I think he has a warped sense of ergonomic. He says that rotating one dial with your forefinger while rotating another one with your thumb is easier than simply rotating a dial for aperture and pressing a button with your thumb in the position where your thumb is anyway at the right top of the camera without moving your finger off the dial and adjusting for shutterspeed.

The latter Sony method is faster.

Tegan

[tegan]

Another part of your quote, RET:

By pushing the AF button on the Nikon D80 you can activate one of three focus modes: AF-A Auto select (default setting), AF-S Single-servo AF, AF-C Continuous-servo. Again this feature would have to be activated by pushing the Function Menu on the A350 and then selecting your desired option. (END of quote)

The Sony view would be that an AF mode button is NOT necessary since most shooters would keep it at the default AF-A position or focus manually.
I would certainly NOT say that I am changing autofocus modes so frequently that an autofocus mode button would be useful. On the contrary, it would just get in the way.

Tegan

[tegan]

To deal with another part of your quote RET:

One other Nikon D80 design advantage that can be seen above is that the "Delete" and "Playback" buttons are located at the top of the camera, which makes it easy to activate these frequently used buttons comfortably with your left thumb while holding the camera in a normal position.

With the Sony A350 we found while holding the camera with both hands, you have to extend your left thumb unnaturally backwards to reach these same two buttons which are now located at the bottom, or you have to change your grip and move your hand further down the base of the camera, activate the button and then move your hand back to a comfortable shooting hold. (END of quote)

I don't see the location of the delete and playback as being an advantage for the Nikon D80 at all. If you are "frequently using" these buttons in the field, then you are wasting battery power and missing shots. The Sony has an automatic playback for a few seconds without any button pushing and that is certainly sufficient for checking out most shots. Moreover Sony views DISP or display information and menu as more important buttons in the field.

Tegan

[ret]

The Sony view would be that an AF mode button is NOT necessary since most shooters would keep it at the default AF-A position or focus manually.
I would certainly NOT say that I am changing autofocus modes so frequently that an autofocus mode button would be useful. On the contrary, it would just get in the way.

Tegan

the point that he is making is that Sony's view is not spot on .... and how would it get in the way?




I don't see the location of the delete and playback as being an advantage for the Nikon D80 at all. If you are "frequently using" these buttons in the field, then you are wasting battery power and missing shots. The Sony has an automatic playback for a few seconds without any button pushing and that is certainly sufficient for checking out most shots. Moreover Sony views DISP or display information and menu as more important buttons in the field.

Tegan

But if battery life is a concern then surly the automatic playback function in Sony is likely to drain more battery than an easy option in Nikon to check when you need to playback!!! Moreover the automatic playback in Sony could turn out to be annoying

[tegan]

Originally Posted by tegan

The Sony view would be that an AF mode button is NOT necessary since most shooters would keep it at the default AF-A position or focus manually.
I would certainly NOT say that I am changing autofocus modes so frequently that an autofocus mode button would be useful. On the contrary, it would just get in the way.

Tegan

RET: the point that he is making is that Sony's view is not spot on .... and how would it get in the way? (end of quote)

I have no idea what you mean by "not spot on" and on the Nikon it gets in the way by being an unnecessary button that can be pushed by accident.

Tegan

[tegan]

But if battery life is a concern then surly the automatic playback function in Sony is likely to drain more battery than an easy option in Nikon to check when you need to playback!!! Moreover the automatic playback in Sony could turn out to be annoying

Well, if you use the Nikon playback with that sort of discretion, then it does not need to be in top position next to the LCD screen. Sony determined its priority correctly and put it in the appropriate location.

The Sony automatic playback is not annoying since if you are not looking at the LCD screen you would miss it. It stays on for less time than the push button approach and therefore does not cause a battery drain, and of course it CAN be turned OFF in the preferences.

Tegan

[ret]

dpreview gave the A350 - "Recommended" status and NOT the "Highly Recommended" one .... below is the review

A350's conclusion page (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra350/page31.asp)

[scorpio_e]

Good luck in your decision. It's not going to be an easy one. Soooooo many choices. I would go with a Nikon or Canon. From my experience, they have more lenses and third party lenses. I have been able to buy and sell Canon lenses with no problem. In most cases, I have been able to try the lens and if I did not like it sell. it.
I think you buy into a system but thats just my opinion.

[tegan]

dpreview gave the A350 - "Recommended" status and NOT the "Highly Recommended" one .... below is the review

A350's conclusion page (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra350/page31.asp)

Frankly I find that Popular Photography does more objective reviewing than dpreview. It was more a personal characterization of the Sony by someone with a strong bias for another brand.

Popular Photography said that the switch for live view was faster than the mode select from a menu and there were none of the problems such as the need for manual focus etc. present in another system. DPreview has "philosophical" issues with a practical fast approach to Live View????

Lag time between shooting and seeing the image??? Any faster and I would miss seeing it appear and then disappear automatically. As to shooting speed
I certainly cannot remember any situation where I ever needed or used (even when I did have it) 5 frames per second or more.

As to IQ, I don't have or use kit lenses, so he is talking about low end glass and/or lack of care or attention to the autofocus system.

I think reviews should be practical. When they get philosophical it usually means they are putting a negative spin on what they see.

Tegan

[Gatepc]

the a300 and a350 are pretty much the same as the a200 ( which i plan to buy :)

[tegan]

the a300 and a350 are pretty much the same as the a200 ( which i plan to buy :)

Not really! The A350 has the tilt screen, live view and more megapixels.

Tegan

[mindforge]

Not really! The A350 has the tilt screen, live view and more megapixels.

Tegan

The tilt screen is probably pretty useful (with live view) but the others are not really that useful, at least to me. The megapixels don't bother me that much at this level.

Does the 350 have DOF preview?

[tegan]

The tilt screen is probably pretty useful (with live view) but the others are not really that useful, at least to me. The megapixels don't bother me that much at this level.

Does the 350 have DOF preview?

The tilt screen and live view are the reasons I bought it. The tilt screen is perfect for street shooting without having the camera at eye level. I have also raised the camera above the heads of a crowd to shoot using the tilt screen and live view. I even braced the camera against the ceiling of a mine shaft to take a shot, using the tilt screen to frame the shot.

The megapixels are extremely useful if you back it up with quality glass in both lenses and filters. When using a telephoto, every megapixel improves the resolution and detail. Noise reduction either in the camera or in post tends to reduce resolution, so the more you have to begin with (in megapixels) the better the resulting photo.

No DOF preview but with the distances on the lenses, I find it easy to set manually but I don't find myself doing it very often at all.

Tegan

[ret]

I have checked the Sonys out when I was looking for my first DSLR and below are some of the differences in the models [from the top of my head]

- A200 ----> 10 mp, no LV
- A350 ----> 14mp, LV w/ tilt screen

and then they have the A300 which has 10mp in the body of A350, along with LV with tilt screen

I have heard that the Sony kit lenses are no up to the mark so you may have to get a better lens like the Carl Zeiss lenses like 16-80 Zeiss (http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=1002951&navigationPath=n32090n100269n100358)


If I had to recommend 2 entry-level DSLRs with LV without taking "getting into a system' concept into account then they would be:

- Olympus E520: I have used it and it's pretty useful entry-level camera. It has all the features that you would need and the 14-42 & 40-150 Zuiko ED kit lenses are pretty decent [gives you a range of 28-300 in 35mm format]. The cameras are solidly built and come with in-body image stabilization

- Canon XSi: again a pretty decent camera with LV and tons of features

When I was upgrading from P&S, LV was one of the features that I was looking for because I was used to shooting with it but after using the DSLRs, I have gotten used to the excellent viewfinders and hardly use the LV. LV is probably more useful if you are doing videos but except for the Nikon D90 and the upcoming pro-level Canon 5D, no other SLRs have video so I don't think you would be using LV over the VF that much once you get into the DSLR

if LV is not that paramount then you can also consider Pentax K200D, which is solidly built with weather seals and has in-body stabilization too. The drawback of this model, IMO, is that it doesn't come with Lithium battery but for some that may not be the case

[tegan]

Actually Sony kit lenses have a reputation as an in-between lens. They are not as poor as the Canon kit lenses but not as good as the Sony G lenses or some of the Minolta lenses.

The problem I find with Olympus is the unique 4 by 3 format and smaller chip. That produces a lighter smaller camera with smaller lenses but there seems to be no system direction to a full frame and even if there were, your current lenses would be useless.

At least with Sony, Nikon and Canon, you can move to full frame.

Live view extends the viewfinder capability and the camera angles at which you can shoot. It is extremely convenient for a lot of shooting. In the winter instead of fogging up the viewfinder, you can shoot from the waist.
When shooting kids playing, it is no longer necessary to be crawling around on the ground and in general shooting my knee ends up much cleaner too.

Tegan

[mindforge]

I have gotten pretty good at aiming blind with my camera above my head or shooting at knee level. The tilt screen would be nice though.

[ret]

why should one think about upgrading to a full-frame when just starting out?

even if you go full-frame, I don't know how useful the entry-level kit lenses will be as most probably when you upgrade you will invest in quality lenses that cost as much as the entry-level DSLR with kit lenses .... I don't know how someone getting a Sony A350 or anything with that kind of sensor would use whatever kit lens it comes with and use that lens for a full-frame [unless buying expensive lenses with full frame in mind but then that beats the purpose of 'entry-level'] .... the point is that if/when you upgrade to a full-frame, you will probably need to get new stuff anyways

IIRC, futureshop has a deal going on Olympus E-510 with the two kit lenses [14-42 and 40-150] for less than $600. You can't go wrong with that ;)

[tegan]

why should one think about upgrading to a full-frame when just starting out?

even if you go full-frame, I don't know how useful the entry-level kit lenses will be as most probably when you upgrade you will invest in quality lenses that cost as much as the entry-level DSLR with kit lenses .... I don't know how someone getting a Sony A350 or anything with that kind of sensor would use whatever kit lens it comes with and use that lens for a full-frame [unless buying expensive lenses with full frame in mind but then that beats the purpose of 'entry-level'] .... the point is that if/when you upgrade to a full-frame, you will probably need to get new stuff anyways

IIRC, futureshop has a deal going on Olympus E-510 with the two kit lenses [14-42 and 40-150] for less than $600. You can't go wrong with that ;)

First the Sony A350 does NOT come with a kit lens, so you can put whatever you want on it. Second the Sony kit lenses are FULL FRAME compatible.

The Sony A350 at 14.2 megapixels can make good advantage of quality glass and of course you never lose by buying fast glass either since it gives you more flexibility with wider fstops and blurring background.

Anyone involved in photography knows that the camera will be obsolete long before the lenses, so it pays to invest in good glass and have an eye for possible upgrade paths.

Tegan

[mindforge]

Yeah... Usually the investment in lenses will surpass the investment in camera bodies for pros... not usually, always, for pros that is anyway.

[ret]

First the Sony A350 does NOT come with a kit lens, so you can put whatever you want on it. Second the Sony kit lenses are FULL FRAME compatible.

The Sony A350 at 14.2 megapixels can make good advantage of quality glass and of course you never lose by buying fast glass either since it gives you more flexibility with wider fstops and blurring background.

Anyone involved in photography knows that the camera will be obsolete long before the lenses, so it pays to invest in good glass and have an eye for possible upgrade paths.

Tegan

the Sony A350 comes with the 18-70 lens kit. It retails for $850 at Blacks (http://blackphotostore.com/english/digital_video/default.asp?WebCategory=U)

I agree with you that you can't go wrong with buying good quality glass as the body comes and goes but the point is if you have the budget to buy those HQ lenses then why would you been considering entry-level DSLRs :eek:

and if you are buying those HQ lenses and if upgrading to full-frame is an option then why consider Sony when companies like Nikon and Canon have killer products like D700 and Canon 5D Mark II (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkII/), which lets you record HD 1080p video too!!

If someone had the budget to buy the A350 with an expensive lens then i guess, it would make more sense for him to get something like the D90 or a 40D, which anyway comes with the nice 17-85 kit lens